Terminate this mailing list?

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Terminate this mailing list?

Elizabeth Matthis
Hi Renaissance enthusiasts,

I've noticed that not much has been happening on this mailing list
(ui@ux), which was originally created to channel all Renaissance
communication and keep it separate from the general UX discussions on
the discuss mailing list. However, since the Renaissance project has
become the main focus of usability work in OOo and pretty much all
discussions thereof have been taking place on the discuss mailing list
(including announcements of Renaissance status, etc.), I wanted to
suggest we terminate the ui@ux list.

We would still have the archives for future reference. Everyone who is
only subscribed here would need to subscribe to the
[hidden email] mailing list, but I'm guessing that most of
you are already there.

What do you think: Agree? Disagree? Alternative suggestions?

Thanks,
Liz

--
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Nagelsweg 55                         User Experience Engineer
20097 Hamburg                        Phone: (+49 40)23646 500
Germany                              Fax:   (+49 40)23646 550
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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Miroslav Mazel
Agreed.

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 9:24 AM, Elizabeth Matthis <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Renaissance enthusiasts,
>
> I've noticed that not much has been happening on this mailing list (ui@ux),
> which was originally created to channel all Renaissance communication and
> keep it separate from the general UX discussions on the discuss mailing
> list. However, since the Renaissance project has become the main focus of
> usability work in OOo and pretty much all discussions thereof have been
> taking place on the discuss mailing list (including announcements of
> Renaissance status, etc.), I wanted to suggest we terminate the ui@uxlist.
>
> We would still have the archives for future reference. Everyone who is only
> subscribed here would need to subscribe to the [hidden email] list, but I'm guessing that most of you are already there.
>
> What do you think: Agree? Disagree? Alternative suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Liz
>
> --
> Sun Microsystems GmbH                Elizabeth Matthis
> Nagelsweg 55                         User Experience Engineer
> 20097 Hamburg                        Phone: (+49 40)23646 500
> Germany                              Fax:   (+49 40)23646 550
> http://www.sun.com                   mailto:[hidden email]
>
> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sonnenallee 1, D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten
> Amtsgericht München: HRB 161028
> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz
>
>
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>


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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Johannes Eva
In reply to this post by Elizabeth Matthis
Agreed! To me this list has always been a little confusing, kind of
duplicating the discuss mailing list.

Cheers,
Johannes

El 10/05/10 09:24, Elizabeth Matthis escribió:

> Hi Renaissance enthusiasts,
>
> I've noticed that not much has been happening on this mailing list
> (ui@ux), which was originally created to channel all Renaissance
> communication and keep it separate from the general UX discussions on
> the discuss mailing list. However, since the Renaissance project has
> become the main focus of usability work in OOo and pretty much all
> discussions thereof have been taking place on the discuss mailing list
> (including announcements of Renaissance status, etc.), I wanted to
> suggest we terminate the ui@ux list.
>
> We would still have the archives for future reference. Everyone who is
> only subscribed here would need to subscribe to the
> [hidden email] mailing list, but I'm guessing that most of
> you are already there.
>
> What do you think: Agree? Disagree? Alternative suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Liz
>


--


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Kölnische Straße 166
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Deutschland
+49 (0)151 55 60 83 95

[hidden email]
http://www.johannes-eva.net/
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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Stefan Weigel
In reply to this post by Elizabeth Matthis
Hi,

Am 10.05.2010 09:24, schrieb Elizabeth Matthis:

> I've noticed that not much has been happening on this mailing list
> (ui@ux), which was originally created to channel all Renaissance
> communication and keep it separate from the general UX discussions on
> the discuss mailing list. However, since the Renaissance project has
> become the main focus of usability work in OOo and pretty much all
> discussions thereof have been taking place on the discuss mailing list
> (including announcements of Renaissance status, etc.)

If the Renaissance project has become the main focus of usability
work in OOo, who takes care for the day-to-day usability issues of
this one of the biggest software projects of the world? :-/

I would suggest to keep up this mailing list and to use it for what
it is meant for.

http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?listName=discuss&msgNo=4090

Stefan

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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Jaron Kuppers
Hi everybody,

While I think the intentions of the ui list were good, it was often used
incorrectly by the community; in many cases the discuss list was CCed
anyways, or a Renaissance issue was started on the discuss list and someone
would have to move it to the ui list.

When there used to be tons of ui list traffic (like last year with as many
as 10-20 emails a day) it was nice to have both.  Now that the list has died
down a lot I don't see any reason to continue using it.

Cheers,
Jaron


On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Stefan Weigel <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Am 10.05.2010 09:24, schrieb Elizabeth Matthis:
>
>
>  I've noticed that not much has been happening on this mailing list
>> (ui@ux), which was originally created to channel all Renaissance
>> communication and keep it separate from the general UX discussions on
>> the discuss mailing list. However, since the Renaissance project has
>> become the main focus of usability work in OOo and pretty much all
>> discussions thereof have been taking place on the discuss mailing list
>> (including announcements of Renaissance status, etc.)
>>
>
> If the Renaissance project has become the main focus of usability work in
> OOo, who takes care for the day-to-day usability issues of this one of the
> biggest software projects of the world? :-/
>
> I would suggest to keep up this mailing list and to use it for what it is
> meant for.
>
> http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?listName=discuss&msgNo=4090
>
> Stefan
>
> --
> www.datenpilot.org
>
>
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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Florian Effenberger
In reply to this post by Elizabeth Matthis
Hi Liz,

Elizabeth Matthis wrote on 2010-05-10 09.24:

> I've noticed that not much has been happening on this mailing list
> (ui@ux), which was originally created to channel all Renaissance
> communication and keep it separate from the general UX discussions on
> the discuss mailing list. However, since the Renaissance project has
> become the main focus of usability work in OOo and pretty much all
> discussions thereof have been taking place on the discuss mailing list
> (including announcements of Renaissance status, etc.), I wanted to
> suggest we terminate the ui@ux list.
>
> We would still have the archives for future reference. Everyone who is
> only subscribed here would need to subscribe to the
> [hidden email] mailing list, but I'm guessing that most of
> you are already there.
>
> What do you think: Agree? Disagree? Alternative suggestions?

in the past, I've re-organized mailing lists in the marketing project as
well as in the distribution project, limiting the total amount of lists.
In fact, most people Cc'ed all lists, which doubled the amount of messages.

If there's no real need for this list, I suggest you mark it as private
(and probably remove moderators to avoid spammy messages). That way,
it's not shown in public, and you can re-activate it anytime you need.

You can also remove all subscribers if needed, of course, but that's not
necessary if none of them uses the list anymore. :-9

That said, I'm no expert of the UX project, so I can't estimate if this
list is needed or not.

Florian

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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Christoph Noack-4
Hi everyone,

isn't it funny that the traffic on the list x-te-fied since Liz asked
for its removel? ;-)

Am Montag, den 10.05.2010, 18:34 +0200 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
[...]
> > What do you think: Agree? Disagree? Alternative suggestions?
>
> in the past, I've re-organized mailing lists in the marketing project as
> well as in the distribution project, limiting the total amount of lists.
> In fact, most people Cc'ed all lists, which doubled the amount of messages.
>
> If there's no real need for this list, I suggest you mark it as private
> (and probably remove moderators to avoid spammy messages). That way,
> it's not shown in public, and you can re-activate it anytime you need.

That is a good hint - thank you!

> You can also remove all subscribers if needed, of course, but that's not
> necessary if none of them uses the list anymore. :-9
>
> That said, I'm no expert of the UX project, so I can't estimate if this
> list is needed or not.

I think it is sufficient if people are part of the UX project :-) More
seriously, today we talked about that topic in the weekly IRC meeting
and I proposed to wait a few more days - if anybody wants to share his
thoughts with us. Then, if nobody vetoes, then we might simply go the
way you proposed.

Here is the chat log:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance:Status_Meetings:2010-05-10

The discussion about the mailing list started at 4:11:33 PM. But - you
may like to read on, since there are some interesting topics (I hope).

By the way, Liz, thank you so(ho) much for having a look at that!

Christoph


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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Frank Loehmann
In reply to this post by Stefan Weigel
Hi Stefan,

Am 10.05.2010 15:31, schrieb Stefan Weigel:

> Hi,
>
> Am 10.05.2010 09:24, schrieb Elizabeth Matthis:
>
>> I've noticed that not much has been happening on this mailing list
>> (ui@ux), which was originally created to channel all Renaissance
>> communication and keep it separate from the general UX discussions on
>> the discuss mailing list. However, since the Renaissance project has
>> become the main focus of usability work in OOo and pretty much all
>> discussions thereof have been taking place on the discuss mailing list
>> (including announcements of Renaissance status, etc.)
>
> If the Renaissance project has become the main focus of usability work
> in OOo, who takes care for the day-to-day usability issues of this one
> of the biggest software projects of the world? :-/

Most UX issues are not that new, so sooner or later the Renaissance
project will take care of them with it's integrated approach. The daily
UX work will happen beside Renaissance like today. I do not think that
'UI' is equal 'Renaissance' (even if this might be the intention when we
setup the mailing list). So every time one has to decide which one is
the right one for a post.

I think that one mailing list is enough for both today. Maybe the
subject of a posting should state "Renaissance:", if it is Renaissance
related or we should think about renaming the 'UI' list to 'Renaissance'.

What do you think?

> I would suggest to keep up this mailing list and to use it for what it
> is meant for.
>
> http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?listName=discuss&msgNo=4090
>
> Stefan

Best regards,

Frank


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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Stefan Weigel
Hi Frank,

Am 12.05.2010 10:44, schrieb Frank Loehmann:

> I think that one mailing list is enough for both today. Maybe the
> subject of a posting should state "Renaissance:", if it is Renaissance
> related or we should think about renaming the 'UI' list to 'Renaissance'.
>
> What do you think?

My concern is...

...to have consistently set up mailing lists

...to use them according to their dedication

...not to change them every now and then.

When I subscribed to [hidden email], I had the intention to be
up to date to what is happening in Renaissance. I was told in
several blogs etc., that this would be the right place. I also was
led by the descriptions in
http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ProjectMailingListList.

As it turned out, one had to follow at least two mailing lists
([hidden email] and [hidden email]), in order to
keep up with information relevant to Renaissance. That´s why I lost
track after some weeks and gave up.

Before terminating [hidden email] one should be aware, that
there are many hints out there in the web and maybe even on printed
papers, that point to [hidden email]. For example, the UI
mailing list is mentioned on countless websites outside the domain
of oo.o ( http://tinyurl.com/32h2x4k ) and of course it is mentioned
on many pages of the OOo website and wiki.

Regards,
Stefan

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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Elizabeth Matthis
Hi Stefan, et al,


On 05/13/10 09:43, Stefan Weigel wrote:

> Hi Frank,
>
> Am 12.05.2010 10:44, schrieb Frank Loehmann:
>
>> I think that one mailing list is enough for both today. Maybe the
>> subject of a posting should state "Renaissance:", if it is Renaissance
>> related or we should think about renaming the 'UI' list to
>> 'Renaissance'.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
It would be good to have the list named Renaissance and so at first
glance I liked this suggestion, but after reading what Stefan wrote
about the name of the mailing list being advertised in various places, I
am contemplating the whole thing anew. More below...
> My concern is...
>
> ...to have consistently set up mailing lists
>
I totally agree.
> ...to use them according to their dedication
>
Yes, it fits with above concern.
> ...not to change them every now and then.
>
Yes, well, the idea was to terminate/consolidate, not to change. ;-) But
I get the point.

> When I subscribed to [hidden email], I had the intention to be
> up to date to what is happening in Renaissance. I was told in several
> blogs etc., that this would be the right place. I also was led by the
> descriptions in http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ProjectMailingListList.
>
> As it turned out, one had to follow at least two mailing lists
> ([hidden email] and [hidden email]), in order to keep
> up with information relevant to Renaissance. That´s why I lost track
> after some weeks and gave up.
>
> Before terminating [hidden email] one should be aware, that
> there are many hints out there in the web and maybe even on printed
> papers, that point to [hidden email]. For example, the UI
> mailing list is mentioned on countless websites outside the domain of
> oo.o ( http://tinyurl.com/32h2x4k ) and of course it is mentioned on
> many pages of the OOo website and wiki.
>
Thanks, Stefan, for giving our minds a new angle to think about.
So what is better? I see a few possibilities:

1) Change name of ui-ux list to [hidden email]. Once
again make the Discuss-UX and Renaissance-UX lists distinctly separate
e.g. Renaissance work only on the Renaissance list; Other topics, such
as iTeam-participation requests for non-Renaissance specifications,
requests for branding or website-related support from the UX community
and the discussion thereof.

PRO: divides the topics up between the lists; very clear which topic to
post to which list (that is, of course, assuming that people actually
can tell the difference between Renaissance-related and non-Ren-related.
Hmmm...Yodel-diplom anyone? Seriously, I bet most newbies don't know the
difference)
CONTRA: all links to the mailing list or hints to subscribe to it will
not fit anymore; topics that start off as general (discuss list) and end
up being Renaissance-related (Renaissance list) are going to be weird to
handle and will result in cross-posting or loss of thread continuity.

2) Terminate ui-ux list. All discussions for the UX community happen on
one list, no matter what the topic. Perhaps with extra mention of
Renaissance in the subject line (but I personally feel that this would
lose practicality really soon because almost all topics are
Renaissance-related. It would be easier to mark the non-Renaissance
messages.)

PRO: one-stop shopping ;-) Everything UX in one place. No more confusion
on where to post or the annoying cross-posting.
CONTRA: all links to the UI mailing list or hints to subscribe to it
will not fit anymore; If the traffic gets heavier, it might be a bother
to those who don't want to follow one of the other list.

3) Leave the two lists named as they currently are, but explain clearly
again and again (wiki, info page, etc) the distinction between the two
separate lists and what their purposes are. Remember to follow our own
instructions. ;-) As Renaissance is the main daily work nowadays,
request that everyone in the UX community subscribe to both lists, so
all requests for Renaissance input will reach the widest UX audience.
(I'm guessing that the UX-discuss was often cc'd in the past, even
though the message was on a Renaissance topic, because the author wanted
input/feedback from as many UX people as possible)

PRO: all links to the mailing list or hints to subscribe to it will
still fit
CONTRA: likely still confusion on which list is for what discussions;
topics that start off as general (discuss list) and end up being
Renaissance-related (Renaissance list) are going to be weird to handle
and will result in cross-posting or loss of thread continuity.
> Regards,
> Stefan
>
So now, folks, I did my bit of thinking, but I bet my gray cells didn't
cover all the bases. How about some feedback on my feedback on the
feedback to my original request?
;-)
Thanks! Hope you all had a lovely weekend.
Liz

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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Christoph Noack-4
Hi Liz, Stefan, *!

Liz, very well presented and explained proposals. Thanks!!!

Am Sonntag, den 16.05.2010, 20:51 +0200 schrieb Elizabeth Matthis:
[...]

> On 05/13/10 09:43, Stefan Weigel wrote:
> > Am 12.05.2010 10:44, schrieb Frank Loehmann:
> >
> >> I think that one mailing list is enough for both today. Maybe the
> >> subject of a posting should state "Renaissance:", if it is Renaissance
> >> related or we should think about renaming the 'UI' list to
> >> 'Renaissance'.
> >>
> >> What do you think?
> >
> It would be good to have the list named Renaissance and so at first
> glance I liked this suggestion, but after reading what Stefan wrote
> about the name of the mailing list being advertised in various places, I
> am contemplating the whole thing anew. More below...

Yes, I thought about that, too.

[...]

> > When I subscribed to [hidden email], I had the intention to be
> > up to date to what is happening in Renaissance. I was told in several
> > blogs etc., that this would be the right place. I also was led by the
> > descriptions in http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ProjectMailingListList.
> >
> > As it turned out, one had to follow at least two mailing lists
> > ([hidden email] and [hidden email]), in order to keep
> > up with information relevant to Renaissance. That´s why I lost track
> > after some weeks and gave up.
[...]

By the way, this is an important feedback. So we  should also take care
of using the correct mailing list for the topics. If you (or others)
observe something strange or have specific examples what went wrong ...
please tell us. Otherwise we'll repeat our mistakes ;-)

> Thanks, Stefan, for giving our minds a new angle to think about.
> So what is better? I see a few possibilities:
>
> 1) Change name of ui-ux list to [hidden email]. Once
> again make the Discuss-UX and Renaissance-UX lists distinctly separate
> e.g. Renaissance work only on the Renaissance list; Other topics, such
> as iTeam-participation requests for non-Renaissance specifications,
> requests for branding or website-related support from the UX community
> and the discussion thereof.
>
> PRO: divides the topics up between the lists; very clear which topic to
> post to which list (that is, of course, assuming that people actually
> can tell the difference between Renaissance-related and non-Ren-related.
> Hmmm...Yodel-diplom anyone? Seriously, I bet most newbies don't know the
> difference)
> CONTRA: all links to the mailing list or hints to subscribe to it will
> not fit anymore; topics that start off as general (discuss list) and end
> up being Renaissance-related (Renaissance list) are going to be weird to
> handle and will result in cross-posting or loss of thread continuity.

Short: I skip proposals 2 and 3 :-)

It turned out, that Renaissance is really a long term project with a
specific scope. We still say "yes, that fits" or "no, that is an
important topic but doesn't touch Renaissance".

Thus, I am with you when thinking about renaming the mailing list to
"renaissance" or "project-renaissance" (or something appropriate).
Especially since we talked about that initially and the main reason to
say "ux-user interface" was that we re-use this list after Renaissance.
Moreover, from my point-of-view, we will show that we are still very
serious about Renaissance ...

So, I am in favor of renaming it and trying to update all the links.
Maybe it is even possible to define some "automatic reply" for (then)
non-existent or "disappeared" mailing lists. Maybe other people do have
more experience in tweaking the OOo infrastructure.

> So now, folks, I did my bit of thinking, but I bet my gray cells didn't
> cover all the bases. How about some feedback on my feedback on the
> feedback to my original request?
> ;-)

Wow, "feedback on my feedback on the feedback to my original requests".
This sounds like OpenOffice.org touching the Web 2.0 age ;-)

Any other feedback, comments, thoughts, anger, relief, ... ???

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Stefan Weigel
Hallo Christoph,

Am 19.05.2010 00:02, schrieb Christoph Noack:

>> On 05/13/10 09:43, Stefan Weigel wrote:

>>> As it turned out, one had to follow at least two mailing lists
>>> ([hidden email] and [hidden email]), in order to keep
>>> up with information relevant to Renaissance. That´s why I lost track
>>> after some weeks and gave up.

> By the way, this is an important feedback. So we  should also take care
> of using the correct mailing list for the topics. If you (or others)
> observe something strange or have specific examples what went wrong ...
> please tell us.

Well, I did:
http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?listName=discuss&msgNo=4090

> Otherwise we'll repeat our mistakes ;-)

Folks didn´t care and kept making this mistake. ;-)

Servus,
Stefan

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Re: Terminate this mailing list?

Elizabeth Matthis
Hi Stefan,

On 05/19/10 09:56, Stefan Weigel wrote:

[...]
> Well, I did:
> http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?listName=discuss&msgNo=4090
>
[...]
> Folks didn´t care and kept making this mistake. ;-)
>
> Servus,
> Stefan
>
Thanks, Stefan, for kindly pointing it out again. I hope we can bring
this decision making process to a close soon. In order for that to
happen, we need to get the input from other major players. Once most
everyone involved agrees to one solution, then we can move ahead with
this clarification.

Best regards,
Liz

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