Shortcuts for special characters

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Shortcuts for special characters

Mathias Bauer
Hi,

currently I have some time on my hands and so I wanted to work on some
issues that I always wanted to see fixed, but never was able to put some
time on them. This comprises several issues regarding keyboard shortcuts.

One of them is "shortcuts for special characters" (issue 4579). I have
done all necessary preliminary code changes, but now I wonder: should we
have a keyboard assignment button in the "insert special character"
dialog or should we have a "assign to special character" button in the
keyboad shortcut dialog? And how should the UI look?

Ciao,
Mathias

--
Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer
OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
Please don't reply to "[hidden email]".
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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Christoph Noack
Hi Mathias,

nice to "see" you!

Am Freitag, den 20.02.2009, 16:06 +0100 schrieb Mathias Bauer:
> currently I have some time on my hands and so I wanted to work on some
> issues that I always wanted to see fixed, but never was able to put some
> time on them. This comprises several issues regarding keyboard shortcuts.
>
> One of them is "shortcuts for special characters" (issue 4579). I have
> done all necessary preliminary code changes, but now I wonder: should we
> have a keyboard assignment button in the "insert special character"
> dialog or should we have a "assign to special character" button in the
> keyboad shortcut dialog? And how should the UI look?

After reading about 50% of the issue 4579 comments and looking at the
current implementation, I would like to ask several questions...

     1. Do you intend to bind one character to a certain keyboard
        shortcut, or a string. Currently, the "insert special
        characters" provides to insert a string. (But this would compete
        with the AutoText functionality).
     2. Is it possible to edit the keybindings from within the "Tools --
        Customize" dialog. As far as I understand, the dialog provides
        to add functions (e.g. insert character) - but no corresponding
        parameters (e.g. character 'é').

Currently, I would like to propose a little package to improve the
situation (descending importance from my point of view):
      * Adding functionality to provide the last used characters (e.g.
        10).
      * Letting the user assign a character to a keyboard shortcut right
        from the "insert special character" dialog.
      * At least, showing and deleting those keybindings in the "Tools
        -- Customize" dialog.
      * Re-design of the "insert special characters dialog" to better
        fit to the current style (button layout at the bottom).
      * Make the dialog non-modal - I wonder why people are forced to
        close it before the document text can be edited again. Maybe our
        users just want to have the dialog besides the Writer window.

That's it at the moment. What do you think, especially since I don't
know how many resources can be "assigned" to work on this request.

Have a nice evening!
Christoph


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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Mathias Bauer
Hi Christoph,

Christoph Noack wrote:

> Hi Mathias,
>
> nice to "see" you!
>
> Am Freitag, den 20.02.2009, 16:06 +0100 schrieb Mathias Bauer:
>> currently I have some time on my hands and so I wanted to work on some
>> issues that I always wanted to see fixed, but never was able to put some
>> time on them. This comprises several issues regarding keyboard shortcuts.
>>
>> One of them is "shortcuts for special characters" (issue 4579). I have
>> done all necessary preliminary code changes, but now I wonder: should we
>> have a keyboard assignment button in the "insert special character"
>> dialog or should we have a "assign to special character" button in the
>> keyboad shortcut dialog? And how should the UI look?
>
> After reading about 50% of the issue 4579 comments and looking at the
> current implementation, I would like to ask several questions...
>
>      1. Do you intend to bind one character to a certain keyboard
>         shortcut, or a string. Currently, the "insert special
>         characters" provides to insert a string. (But this would compete
>         with the AutoText functionality).

Technically there is no limit that would force me to assign only single
characters. Maybe users would be more irritated about a "competing"
feature than about a missing functionality that they can use when they
directly assign special characters but can't use it for shortcuts. So
for now I thought not to change the existing functionality and so also
allow to bind more than one character to a shortcut. This is different
to and better than autotexts as the latter need more key strokes.

>      2. Is it possible to edit the keybindings from within the "Tools --
>         Customize" dialog. As far as I understand, the dialog provides
>         to add functions (e.g. insert character) - but no corresponding
>         parameters (e.g. character 'é').

Currently this dialog does not allow to bind to special characters at
all, otherwise I wouldn't ask here. ;-)

If a user sees a bound special character, would she like to edit that
binding in the configuration dialog? Deleting is easy, editing not. Is
it OK to start the "Insert special character" dialog for that? OTOH, if
a user selects special characters, would she like to bind a shortcut
also from the same dialog where she selected the character? The drawback
is that here she can't see which shortcuts are already assigned, so at
least a warning in case she selected one of those would be good.

> Currently, I would like to propose a little package to improve the
> situation (descending importance from my point of view):
>       * Adding functionality to provide the last used characters (e.g.
>         10).
>       * Letting the user assign a character to a keyboard shortcut right
>         from the "insert special character" dialog.
>       * At least, showing and deleting those keybindings in the "Tools
>         -- Customize" dialog.
>       * Re-design of the "insert special characters dialog" to better
>         fit to the current style (button layout at the bottom).
>       * Make the dialog non-modal - I wonder why people are forced to
>         close it before the document text can be edited again. Maybe our
>         users just want to have the dialog besides the Writer window.

I agree with all your points. I don't think that the first point is the
most important one, but it's a nice idea indeed.

There is a problem with the third point: I'm not sure if the listbox is
able to always display the special characters, as some of them might be
available only in a particular font, and AFAIK the listbox can only use
one font.

Thanks for your input, it's close to what I intended to do.

Ciao,
Mathias

--
Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer
OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
Please don't reply to "[hidden email]".
I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it.


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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Christoph Noack
Hi Mathias!

Am Montag, den 23.02.2009, 13:50 +0100 schrieb Mathias Bauer:
[...]

> >> One of them is "shortcuts for special characters" (issue 4579). I have
> >> done all necessary preliminary code changes, but now I wonder: should we
> >> have a keyboard assignment button in the "insert special character"
> >> dialog or should we have a "assign to special character" button in the
> >> keyboad shortcut dialog? And how should the UI look?
> >
> > After reading about 50% of the issue 4579 comments and looking at the
> > current implementation, I would like to ask several questions...
> >
> >      1. Do you intend to bind one character to a certain keyboard
> >         shortcut, or a string. Currently, the "insert special
> >         characters" provides to insert a string. (But this would compete
> >         with the AutoText functionality).
>
> Technically there is no limit that would force me to assign only single
> characters. Maybe users would be more irritated about a "competing"
> feature than about a missing functionality that they can use when they
> directly assign special characters but can't use it for shortcuts. So
> for now I thought not to change the existing functionality and so also
> allow to bind more than one character to a shortcut. This is different
> to and better than autotexts as the latter need more key strokes.

Mmh, I don't know if it really helps to add a string to a keyboard
shortcut - virtually it is still one keypress :-) At least, some more
improvements come into my mind when I think about the current dialog...
But I should stop here.

> >      2. Is it possible to edit the keybindings from within the "Tools --
> >         Customize" dialog. As far as I understand, the dialog provides
> >         to add functions (e.g. insert character) - but no corresponding
> >         parameters (e.g. character 'é').
>
> Currently this dialog does not allow to bind to special characters at
> all, otherwise I wouldn't ask here. ;-)

Sometimes it's better to ask, because I rarely use the "customize"
dialog.

> If a user sees a bound special character, would she like to edit that
> binding in the configuration dialog? Deleting is easy, editing not. Is
> it OK to start the "Insert special character" dialog for that?

If we want to limit the effort, it would be okay to just use the "insert
special character" dialog for that. If we would have a better GUI
framework, then embedding the selection besides/below the dialog would
have been great.

But how to start that dialog? With regard to limited effort (please
correct me if I'm wrong, and I will find some better solution), I would
like to propose the following.

Basically, there is a need to assign a parameter (like string "xyz") to
a new function (let's simply call it "Special Character with Shortcut"):
For the Customize Dialog (Keyboard)...
      * Basically, the dialog stays the same.
      * If a function which requires a parameter is added by clicking on
        modify, then the "insert special character" dialog pops up.
        Confirming adds it, canceling removes the keyboard shortcut.
      * If a function which requires a parameter is selected, then the
        caption "Keys" is changed to "Keys and Special
        Characters" (please forget the terminology at the moment).
      * If the function which requires a parameter is selected and there
        is already a key assigned, then...
              * ...the "Keys and Special Characters" shows the binding,
                e.g. "Ctrl+Shift+F4 inserts 'xyz')" (If technically
                feasible, you mentioned it below.)
              * ...the button "Modify" is changed to a dropdown, similar
                to the other tab pages in the same dialog. This Modify
                button allows to change the current assignment ("Change
                assignment") or to change the parameter ("Change Special
                Characters"). The latter may again open the "Insert
                Special Characters" dialog.

That should be everything which is required here. It would keep the
current implementation something straight forward, and provide
additional freedom for new functions. By the way, the same interaction
may serve a "Assign keyboard shortcut to paragraph style" very well.

> OTOH, if
> a user selects special characters, would she like to bind a shortcut
> also from the same dialog where she selected the character? The drawback
> is that here she can't see which shortcuts are already assigned, so at
> least a warning in case she selected one of those would be good.

So there are several alternatives for the "insert special characters"
dialog:
      * Do nothing ;-) Bad.
      * Add a tipp (one line of text) to refer to the other dialog. Not
        the best solution, as it involves additional manual steps for
        the user. But, it's easy to accomplish.
      * Add a button to call the other dialog. I assume that this would
        be an overwhelming situation for many users... Complexity.
      * Think about a clever solution how. The hardest part ;-)

I'm sorry, but I've made some sketches for about 30 minutes, but there
is still no satisfying result. The combination of using strings, limited
screen space and convenient keyboard handling, ...  May I ask to delay a
specific proposal?

> > Currently, I would like to propose a little package to improve the
> > situation (descending importance from my point of view):
> >       * Adding functionality to provide the last used characters (e.g.
> >         10).
> >       * Letting the user assign a character to a keyboard shortcut right
> >         from the "insert special character" dialog.
> >       * At least, showing and deleting those keybindings in the "Tools
> >         -- Customize" dialog.
> >       * Re-design of the "insert special characters dialog" to better
> >         fit to the current style (button layout at the bottom).
> >       * Make the dialog non-modal - I wonder why people are forced to
> >         close it before the document text can be edited again. Maybe our
> >         users just want to have the dialog besides the Writer window.
>
> I agree with all your points. I don't think that the first point is the
> most important one, but it's a nice idea indeed.

>From my point of (competitor) view, many users do only use a small set
of special characters (e.g. mathematical signs, arrows, ...). If they
use those characters rather seldom, assigning keyboard is additional
mental load for them. So viewing and just "picking" may fulfill many
user's needs.

> There is a problem with the third point: I'm not sure if the listbox is
> able to always display the special characters, as some of them might be
> available only in a particular font, and AFAIK the listbox can only use
> one font.

The same will occur in the "insert special characters" dialog, as the
user may want to compose a string based on different characters which
are only available in separate fonts.


> Thanks for your input, it's close to what I intended to do.

Oh, close does still not hit the nail on the head. Maybe I hit my
thumb ;-)

I'm curious what you are thinking about!

Bye,
Christoph



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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Mathias Bauer
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Christoph Noack wrote:

> Currently, I would like to propose a little package to improve the
> situation (descending importance from my point of view):
>       * Adding functionality to provide the last used characters (e.g.
>         10).
>       * Letting the user assign a character to a keyboard shortcut right
>         from the "insert special character" dialog.

The more I think about that, the more I believe that we should use the
same approach as in case of the assignment of shortcuts to macros: start
a configuration dialog. Then the user can see which shortcuts are "free".

Ciao,
Mathias

--
Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer
OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
Please don't reply to "[hidden email]".
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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Jaron Kuppers
Hi Mathias and Christoph,

This has been a very interesting discussion thus far.  I had a little
trouble following Christoph's suggestion but hopefully I understood enough.

Firstly, let me just say that this issue is likely OS dependent.  The Option
key on a Mac allows the user access to most commonly used special characters
and may confuse the user if for example "Command+U" returns a special
character in addition to "Option+U".

That issue aside I think we should take a look at programs that use a lot of
special characters to see how they implemented easy access.  Programs I have
worked with personally have been MathCad and a couple other math/engineering
programs (that sadly I can't remember now but will look for later).  PopChar
is a program that lets you quickly access special characters for use
anywhere within an OS.

Secondly, I would like to discuss the behavior around which a user may
require a special character often enough that they would like to assign a
keyboard shortcut.  I imagine anyone who writes in a language with umlauts,
e-circumflexs, e-acutes etc... would be in great need of this feature.
Christoph, don't German keyboards come with extra letters to accomodate
this?  This is likely the reason Apple sought to make access to these
letters part of the native OS.  I would venture that keyboard shortcut
access to Greek letters (outside of greece) such as for mathematics, would
not require keyboard shortcuts due to the large potential need.  Since a
math technical paper may contain upwards of 7 special letters the user will
likely forget which letters he/she has assigned.

Since many keyboard shortcuts are already taken for alternate uses and the
complexity of assigning shortcuts as well as the memory burden on the user
are high, I would suggest a different approach to handling access to special
characters.  (While I do support the idea of having the special characters
window float, to allow the user to access the list while writing, I think we
may consider another option.)

The user uses a shortcut, such as ctrl+e which brings up a mock keyboard
window.  Basically, it would be a transparent window with the keys of a
normal QWERTY keyboard laid out.  Each key on this digital keyboard would
have a letter on it, so Q could be "Tau" and E could be "é" for example.
Input from the hardware keyboard would return the letter shown on the
digital keyboard.  If the user holds down shift, the digital keyboard would
change to show the special characters assigned to the digital keyboard for
shift+"letter" input.  The return key would be labeled something like "Done"
or "Close digital keyboard."  This behavior being opposed to having the user
access a single letter on the digital keyboard per access of the digital
keyboard window.  A menu option "assign digital keyboard special characters"
(or some shorter name) would allow the user to look through the list of
special characters and drag and drop the ones they want to appear on the
digital keyboard.

Overall, I feel this approach provides an intuitive and significantly less
complex approach to providing the special character access and functionality
that many users need.  I am not, however, the best person to comment on this
as I don't have a great need for this funtionality and don't require access
to special characters in the majority of my daily writing.  Just thought I
would throw the suggestion out there.

Cheers,
Jaron



On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 6:12 AM, Mathias Bauer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Christoph Noack wrote:
>
> > Currently, I would like to propose a little package to improve the
> > situation (descending importance from my point of view):
> >       * Adding functionality to provide the last used characters (e.g.
> >         10).
> >       * Letting the user assign a character to a keyboard shortcut right
> >         from the "insert special character" dialog.
>
> The more I think about that, the more I believe that we should use the
> same approach as in case of the assignment of shortcuts to macros: start
> a configuration dialog. Then the user can see which shortcuts are "free".
>
> Ciao,
> Mathias
>
> --
> Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer
> OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
> Please don't reply to "[hidden email]".
> I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Christoph Noack
In reply to this post by Mathias Bauer
Hi Mathias, hi Jaron,

I'm sorry for answering this late, but at the moment I'm preparing some
other stuff which keeps me busy...

Am Dienstag, den 24.02.2009, 12:12 +0100 schrieb Mathias Bauer:

> Christoph Noack wrote:
>
> > Currently, I would like to propose a little package to improve the
> > situation (descending importance from my point of view):
> >       * Adding functionality to provide the last used characters (e.g.
> >         10).
> >       * Letting the user assign a character to a keyboard shortcut right
> >         from the "insert special character" dialog.
>
> The more I think about that, the more I believe that we should use the
> same approach as in case of the assignment of shortcuts to macros: start
> a configuration dialog. Then the user can see which shortcuts are "free".

Sorry, but it seems that I'm not able to find that configuration dialog
to better understand what you mean. I tried OpenOffice.org 3.0 (Ubuntu
PPA) and opened "Tools - Macros - Organize - OpenOffice.org Basic" Then,
I clicked on "Assign" (Zuordnen) and I get a dialog which let's me
chose: Menus, Toolbars or Events. But there seems to be no way to assign
keybindings - am I doing something wrong?

Thank you (or anybody else) in advance!

Christoph


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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Jaron Kuppers
Hi Christoph and Mathias,

I actually thought Mathias was suggesting that the keybindings be a part of
the specification. (I didn't think you could currently assign key bindings
either).  Is this the case Mathias?

Cheers,
Jaron



On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Christoph Noack <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Mathias, hi Jaron,
>
> I'm sorry for answering this late, but at the moment I'm preparing some
> other stuff which keeps me busy...
>
> Am Dienstag, den 24.02.2009, 12:12 +0100 schrieb Mathias Bauer:
> > Christoph Noack wrote:
> >
> > > Currently, I would like to propose a little package to improve the
> > > situation (descending importance from my point of view):
> > >       * Adding functionality to provide the last used characters (e.g.
> > >         10).
> > >       * Letting the user assign a character to a keyboard shortcut
> right
> > >         from the "insert special character" dialog.
> >
> > The more I think about that, the more I believe that we should use the
> > same approach as in case of the assignment of shortcuts to macros: start
> > a configuration dialog. Then the user can see which shortcuts are "free".
>
> Sorry, but it seems that I'm not able to find that configuration dialog
> to better understand what you mean. I tried OpenOffice.org 3.0 (Ubuntu
> PPA) and opened "Tools - Macros - Organize - OpenOffice.org Basic" Then,
> I clicked on "Assign" (Zuordnen) and I get a dialog which let's me
> chose: Menus, Toolbars or Events. But there seems to be no way to assign
> keybindings - am I doing something wrong?
>
> Thank you (or anybody else) in advance!
>
> Christoph
>
>
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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Cor Nouws
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Hi Christoph,

Christoph Noack wrote (28-2-2009 1:07)

> Am Dienstag, den 24.02.2009, 12:12 +0100 schrieb Mathias Bauer:
>> Christoph Noack wrote:
>>
>>> Currently, I would like to propose a little package to improve the
>>> situation (descending importance from my point of view):
>>>       * Adding functionality to provide the last used characters (e.g.
>>>         10).
>>>       * Letting the user assign a character to a keyboard shortcut right
>>>         from the "insert special character" dialog.
>> The more I think about that, the more I believe that we should use the
>> same approach as in case of the assignment of shortcuts to macros: start
>> a configuration dialog. Then the user can see which shortcuts are "free".
>
> Sorry, but it seems that I'm not able to find that configuration dialog
> to better understand what you mean. I tried OpenOffice.org 3.0 (Ubuntu
> PPA) and opened "Tools - Macros - Organize - OpenOffice.org Basic" Then,
> I clicked on "Assign" (Zuordnen) and I get a dialog which let's me
> chose: Menus, Toolbars or Events. But there seems to be no way to assign
> keybindings - am I doing something wrong?

Tools|Macro's|Organize Macro's|OpenOffice.org Basic > Assign button

Ciao,
Cor


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= "2009 - Develop OOo"   =   www.nieuwsteoffice.nl  =


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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Cor Nouws
In reply to this post by Mathias Bauer
Hi Mathias,

Mathias Bauer wrote (20-2-2009 16:06)
> currently I have some time on my hands and so I wanted to work on some
> issues that I always wanted to see fixed, but never was able to put some
> time on them. This comprises several issues regarding keyboard shortcuts.
>
> One of them is "shortcuts for special characters" (issue 4579). I have
> done all necessary preliminary code changes, but now I wonder: should we
> have a keyboard assignment button in the "insert special character"
> dialog or should we have a "assign to special character" button in the
> keyboad shortcut dialog? And how should the UI look?

A bit late, but I would think an assign key in the special character
dialog is needed most.
Looking at the current Customization dialog, it would also be good if
Special character + fonts are added to the listbox Category, and the
Characters themselves shown in the listbox Function.
This in analogy with how it works with macro's.

Regards,
Cor

--
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= "2009 - Develop OOo"   =   www.nieuwsteoffice.nl  =

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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Mathias Bauer
In reply to this post by Jaron Kuppers
Hi Jaron,

my intention was to use the "keyboard" tabpage of the configuration
dialog as an assignment tool that is started from the "insert special
character" dialog, in a similar way as e.g. Word 2003 does it. I
actually got that working in a CWS, but didn't commit that anywhere.

As it seems you guys want a more "fancy" solution, but this would
require more effort that - I'm afraid - can't be justified. Until now it
was just a pet project of mine that I worked on in my spare time. I
think the importance of this issue is not big enough to spend a lot of
time with writing specs, designing UI etc.

So the questiuon is: do you consider the current state (no keyboard
assignment) better than my perhaps "second class" suggestion? Then I
will postpone further work to "OOoLater", what actually is the target
milestone of this issue.

Thanks for your interesting replies,
Mathias

Jaron Kuppers wrote:

> Hi Christoph and Mathias,
>
> I actually thought Mathias was suggesting that the keybindings be a part of
> the specification. (I didn't think you could currently assign key bindings
> either).  Is this the case Mathias?
>
> Cheers,
> Jaron
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Christoph Noack <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Mathias, hi Jaron,
>>
>> I'm sorry for answering this late, but at the moment I'm preparing some
>> other stuff which keeps me busy...
>>
>> Am Dienstag, den 24.02.2009, 12:12 +0100 schrieb Mathias Bauer:
>> > Christoph Noack wrote:
>> >
>> > > Currently, I would like to propose a little package to improve the
>> > > situation (descending importance from my point of view):
>> > >       * Adding functionality to provide the last used characters (e.g.
>> > >         10).
>> > >       * Letting the user assign a character to a keyboard shortcut
>> right
>> > >         from the "insert special character" dialog.
>> >
>> > The more I think about that, the more I believe that we should use the
>> > same approach as in case of the assignment of shortcuts to macros: start
>> > a configuration dialog. Then the user can see which shortcuts are "free".
>>
>> Sorry, but it seems that I'm not able to find that configuration dialog
>> to better understand what you mean. I tried OpenOffice.org 3.0 (Ubuntu
>> PPA) and opened "Tools - Macros - Organize - OpenOffice.org Basic" Then,
>> I clicked on "Assign" (Zuordnen) and I get a dialog which let's me
>> chose: Menus, Toolbars or Events. But there seems to be no way to assign
>> keybindings - am I doing something wrong?
>>
>> Thank you (or anybody else) in advance!
>>
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>


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Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer
OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
Please don't reply to "[hidden email]".
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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Christoph Noack
In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
Hi Cor,

thank you for the hint, but it seems I'm blind... In both my usual
OpenOffice.org and a fresh Developer Snapshot (m2), the Assign button
opens a window which looks like the dialog opened with "Tools --
Customize". Except, that the tab "Keyboard" is missing. A mystery ;-)

Bye,
Christoph

Am Samstag, den 28.02.2009, 22:50 +0100 schrieb Cor Nouws:

> Hi Christoph,
>
> Christoph Noack wrote (28-2-2009 1:07)
> > Am Dienstag, den 24.02.2009, 12:12 +0100 schrieb Mathias Bauer:
> >> Christoph Noack wrote:
> >>
> >>> Currently, I would like to propose a little package to improve the
> >>> situation (descending importance from my point of view):
> >>>       * Adding functionality to provide the last used characters (e.g.
> >>>         10).
> >>>       * Letting the user assign a character to a keyboard shortcut right
> >>>         from the "insert special character" dialog.
> >> The more I think about that, the more I believe that we should use the
> >> same approach as in case of the assignment of shortcuts to macros: start
> >> a configuration dialog. Then the user can see which shortcuts are "free".
> >
> > Sorry, but it seems that I'm not able to find that configuration dialog
> > to better understand what you mean. I tried OpenOffice.org 3.0 (Ubuntu
> > PPA) and opened "Tools - Macros - Organize - OpenOffice.org Basic" Then,
> > I clicked on "Assign" (Zuordnen) and I get a dialog which let's me
> > chose: Menus, Toolbars or Events. But there seems to be no way to assign
> > keybindings - am I doing something wrong?
>
> Tools|Macro's|Organize Macro's|OpenOffice.org Basic > Assign button
>
> Ciao,
> Cor
>
>


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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Mike Hall
In reply to this post by Mathias Bauer
FWIW, it seems highly desirable to adopt an interim solution if one is
available, thanks to Mathias.

The question about whether or not the work can be justified hits one my
buttons. There has been no triage, as far as I'm aware, on whether or
not the work would be justified. What generally happens is that
individual developers decide this for themselves. This comment isn't
aimed directly at those involved in this particular development, but it
is, IMHO, a major weakness of the Open Source model and of OOo culture
in particular. There are plenty of issues around, easy to fix and
important for users which aren't sexy enough to get development
attention. That's not a good development model.

For inserting language alphabet characters for a second language,
certainly on Windows, the alternative of installing the keyboard mapping
for the target language is another and very effective alternative,
removing the need for keyboard shortcuts for those circumstances. I
often use the DE keyboard for this reason. We might make more of that
option as an alternative.

Mike


Mathias Bauer wrote:

> Hi Jaron,
>
> my intention was to use the "keyboard" tabpage of the configuration
> dialog as an assignment tool that is started from the "insert special
> character" dialog, in a similar way as e.g. Word 2003 does it. I
> actually got that working in a CWS, but didn't commit that anywhere.
>
> As it seems you guys want a more "fancy" solution, but this would
> require more effort that - I'm afraid - can't be justified. Until now it
> was just a pet project of mine that I worked on in my spare time. I
> think the importance of this issue is not big enough to spend a lot of
> time with writing specs, designing UI etc.
>
> So the questiuon is: do you consider the current state (no keyboard
> assignment) better than my perhaps "second class" suggestion? Then I
> will postpone further work to "OOoLater", what actually is the target
> milestone of this issue.
>
> Thanks for your interesting replies,
> Mathias
>
> Jaron Kuppers wrote:
>
>  
>> Hi Christoph and Mathias,
>>
>> I actually thought Mathias was suggesting that the keybindings be a part of
>> the specification. (I didn't think you could currently assign key bindings
>> either).  Is this the case Mathias?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jaron
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Christoph Noack <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> Hi Mathias, hi Jaron,
>>>
>>> I'm sorry for answering this late, but at the moment I'm preparing some
>>> other stuff which keeps me busy...
>>>
>>> Am Dienstag, den 24.02.2009, 12:12 +0100 schrieb Mathias Bauer:
>>>      
>>>> Christoph Noack wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>> Currently, I would like to propose a little package to improve the
>>>>> situation (descending importance from my point of view):
>>>>>       * Adding functionality to provide the last used characters (e.g.
>>>>>         10).
>>>>>       * Letting the user assign a character to a keyboard shortcut
>>>>>          
>>> right
>>>      
>>>>>         from the "insert special character" dialog.
>>>>>          
>>>> The more I think about that, the more I believe that we should use the
>>>> same approach as in case of the assignment of shortcuts to macros: start
>>>> a configuration dialog. Then the user can see which shortcuts are "free".
>>>>        
>>> Sorry, but it seems that I'm not able to find that configuration dialog
>>> to better understand what you mean. I tried OpenOffice.org 3.0 (Ubuntu
>>> PPA) and opened "Tools - Macros - Organize - OpenOffice.org Basic" Then,
>>> I clicked on "Assign" (Zuordnen) and I get a dialog which let's me
>>> chose: Menus, Toolbars or Events. But there seems to be no way to assign
>>> keybindings - am I doing something wrong?
>>>
>>> Thank you (or anybody else) in advance!
>>>
>>> Christoph
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>
>
>  

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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Maximilian Odendahl-3
Hi,

> There are plenty of issues around, easy to fix and
> important for users which aren't sexy enough to get development
> attention. That's not a good development model.

I just love these sentences...can you give me a list of these issues
which are in your opinion easy to fix and important for users?

Regards
Max

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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Mike Hall
Maximilian Odendahl wrote:

> Hi,
>
>> There are plenty of issues around, easy to fix and important for
>> users which aren't sexy enough to get development attention. That's
>> not a good development model.
>
> I just love these sentences...can you give me a list of these issues
> which are in your opinion easy to fix and important for users?
>
> Regards
> Max
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
That's a perfectly fair challenge. I do not have a list at my
fingertips, but can construct one by looking back at some of the issues
I've looked at or qa'd in the past. Others will no doubt be able to
suggest ones too. The question is though, is this just to justify our
respective biases or would something happen as a result, ie some of the
issues would get fixed more quickly. If the latter, I'm willing to spend
a considerable time researching and enabling it. If the former, I will
do nothing.

--
Mike Hall
www.onepoyle.net

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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Maximilian Odendahl-3
Hi,

 >> There are plenty of issues around, easy to fix and important for
 >> users which aren't sexy enough to get development attention. That's
 >> not a good development model.

> That's a perfectly fair challenge. I do not have a list at my
> fingertips, but can construct one by looking back at some of the issues
> I've looked at or qa'd in the past.

the reason I am asking is because I read this quite often, and then when
asking, nothing comes up at all or issues which are certainly not easy
to fix. I know not everyone knows how to program or has insight into the
code, but then they should't claim about easy fixes.


> The question is though, is this just to justify our
> respective biases or would something happen as a result, ie some of the
> issues would get fixed more quickly.

yes, if these issues are indeed easy and important to users, there is a
good chance I can fix them...

To have a list of easy issues in the wiki would be a great place to
start for new developers anyway(if these issues are easy actually), so
uf you have time to create such a list would be great.

Max

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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Maximilian Odendahl-3
> To have a list of easy issues in the wiki would be a great place to
> start for new developers anyway(if these issues are easy actually), so
> uf you have time to create such a list would be great.

if you start doing this, I would start with writer, there I can actually
  judge best if it is easy to fix or not(and fix eventually).....

Max

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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Mike Hall
Maximilian Odendahl wrote:

>> To have a list of easy issues in the wiki would be a great place to
>> start for new developers anyway(if these issues are easy actually),
>> so uf you have time to create such a list would be great.
>
> if you start doing this, I would start with writer, there I can
> actually  judge best if it is easy to fix or not(and fix eventually).....
>
> Max
>
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>
Fine, thank you Max, then I accept the challenge, and I particularly
like the idea of having something for new developers to get their teeth
into.

Can you give me a clue where on the Wiki this might go? I've not
contributed to the Wiki before.

I will definitely start with Writer, which is the only part of the suite
I know well, but also the most important on grounds of number of users.
It won't be quick and won't start for a couple of weeks while two other
short-term programming priorities are resolved. I will endeavour to set
up a process which involves the qa teams looking out for these kinds of
issues as well.

For information, although not an OOo developer, I have 40+ years of
programming experience, starting with assembler on Univac writing
commercial database software. Nowadays most of what I do is in PERL
(thousands of lines - that's a lot of PERL). So, in general, I'm in a
place to at least have a feel for easy and difficult as well as for
important.

--
Mike Hall
www.onepoyle.net

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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Mathias Bauer
In reply to this post by Mike Hall
Hi Mike,

Mike Hall wrote:

> FWIW, it seems highly desirable to adopt an interim solution if one is
> available, thanks to Mathias.

Well, I'm open to this. If Christoph, Jaron and others agree, I could
present some screenshots or even a developer build for trying out.

> The question about whether or not the work can be justified hits one my
> buttons. There has been no triage, as far as I'm aware, on whether or
> not the work would be justified. What generally happens is that
> individual developers decide this for themselves.
While this is true for some issues, it's certainly not true for quite
old issues with a considerable number of votes, like the issue we are
discussing currently. Usually there are more people judging the
importance of issues, e.g. UX, QA, users by votes and - last, but not
least - the project lead (well, there must be an advantage in being a
lead ;-)).

> This comment isn't
> aimed directly at those involved in this particular development, but it
> is, IMHO, a major weakness of the Open Source model and of OOo culture
> in particular. There are plenty of issues around, easy to fix and
> important for users which aren't sexy enough to get development
> attention. That's not a good development model.

This is not so easy as you think. Quite often things are complicated,
but look easy for those not in the know. And even if writing the code
for a particular issue is easy, maybe a huge amount of writing a spec,
discussing UI consequences and testing can be involved. This is often
overlooked by people talking about "easy to fix issues".

But I agree that this is true in some cases, I occasionally find some of
them by myself and then I usually fix them, regardless which target they
have.

Regards,
Mathias

--
Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer
OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
Please don't reply to "[hidden email]".
I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it.


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Re: Shortcuts for special characters

Jaron Kuppers
In reply to this post by Mike Hall
MIke, and Max,

While your discussion is interesting and I would like to get involved could
you please move it to a different thread.

Thanks.


Mathias,

That is completely understandable.  I think your idea provides a good amount
of utility for the time that will be invested in it.  Assigning a keyboard
shortcut will be useful for many users and is actually something I have
desired for a while.  If you need any help doing whatever paperwork is
required to submit the keyboard shortcut let me know.

As far as justifying improvements to other aspects of "Special Character"
assignment, I would suggest we wait until after the keylogger is completed
anyways.  As I mentioned before, I imagine that outside of a Mac, writing in
foreign languages efficiently can only be done using a 3rd party program.
If the keylogger shows this is the case or that people struggle with the
special character window then we can find a more fancy solution then.

Jaron




Mathias wrote:
my intention was to use the "keyboard" tabpage of the configuration
dialog as an assignment tool that is started from the "insert special
character" dialog, in a similar way as e.g. Word 2003 does it. I
actually got that working in a CWS, but didn't commit that anywhere.

As it seems you guys want a more "fancy" solution, but this would
require more effort that - I'm afraid - can't be justified. Until now it
was just a pet project of mine that I worked on in my spare time. I
think the importance of this issue is not big enough to spend a lot of
time with writing specs, designing UI etc.

So the questiuon is: do you consider the current state (no keyboard
assignment) better than my perhaps "second class" suggestion? Then I
will postpone further work to "OOoLater", what actually is the target
milestone of this issue.
12