Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?

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Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?

Camille Moulin-2
Dear UX team,

I was wondering which was the status of the "better defaults" initiative?
Some proposals appear to be not acceptable by everyone (like the
transparent shadow I proposed) but I think some other ones are not
controversial and really easy to implement, like "switch off impress
wizard" and "Copy when moving by default".
So may be we could make a first iteration and validate a first list that
everyone agrees on ?

Cheers,
Camille






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Re: Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?

Frank Loehmann-2
Hi Camille,

Christoph Lukasiak and Christian Lippka from the Impress team are working on this topic right now.

Better Defaults homepage:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Improving_OOo_Default_Settings

In the making:
1: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/BetterDefaults_BulletsColorsShortcuts_workout
2: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/BetterDefaults_GridHandling_workout
3: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/BetterDefaults_GraphicsFontsSettings_workout

BTW printing transparent objects/shadows is an issue due to huge amount of printing data. You may know the message 'Document contains transparencies, do you want to print transparencies...' So we decided to go with a modified solid one, until this limitation is solved.

Regarding the wizard the user feedback data (aka usage tracking) tells us that many users do use this wizard today. So it seems that disabling it would be no good idea without solving real need why users are using it today.

I am sure that Christoph will post an update on this topic next week.

Best regards,

Frank

Am 08.10.2010 08:53, schrieb Camille Moulin:
Dear UX team,

I was wondering which was the status of the "better defaults" initiative?
Some proposals appear to be not acceptable by everyone (like the
transparent shadow I proposed) but I think some other ones are not
controversial and really easy to implement, like "switch off impress
wizard" and "Copy when moving by default".
So may be we could make a first iteration and validate a first list that
everyone agrees on ?

Cheers,
Camille






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--


Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 882
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven

Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment



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Re: Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?

Andreas Bartel-2
In reply to this post by Camille Moulin-2
Hi again,


Am 08.10.2010 um 08:53 schrieb Camille Moulin:

> Dear UX team,
>
> I was wondering which was the status of the "better defaults" initiative?
> Some proposals appear to be not acceptable by everyone (like the
> transparent shadow I proposed)

we has an internal status report of the OOo Con 2010 presentation yesterday. We discussed the exact same thing. New shadows. The problem is that if we use really pretty nice shadows with transparency with the current technology, users who want to print things will have to wait for centuries for their printouts. So for now, it's "just" a matter of technology.

> but I think some other ones are not
> controversial and really easy to implement, like "switch off impress
> wizard" and "Copy when moving by default".

I think Copy When Moving is in. Switching off the Wizard, we were not sure since usage tracking revealed that it was used more than we expected.

> So may be we could make a first iteration and validate a first list that
> everyone agrees on ?
>
> Cheers,
> Camille

Frank and Christoph can provide more info here.

Regards,
Andreas

>
>
>
>
>
>
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Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven



Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment





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Re: Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?

Camille Moulin-2
In reply to this post by Frank Loehmann-2
Hi Frank,
On 08/10/2010 10:27, Frank Loehmann wrote:
Thanks (I don't how I managed not to find those 3 pages...)

Ideally, what I was looking for was a status for each suggestion : to
know if it had been discussed, rejected and if it was already in
development. Something like that:

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Camillem/BetterDefaults

It's just a start to show what I mean, and I'd like to complete it with
info that I can't find on any the 3 "update" pages.

For instance, about "Default colour of tables" : The blue shades
have,let's say, little success among the users I know, because they
don't match the colors of the company, and they are not very discrete.
The problem is made worse by the fact that a newly inserted row doesn't
inherit the format of the previous one. So, you create your table, you
remove the blue that you dislike, but it comes back with every new row,
which is a little bit frustrating.
So, I think an easy and not expensive solution would be to choose the
grey shades (4th design at the moment) as the default. I know it doesn't
solve much, but it won't disrupt much either and il will soften things a
little, for the price of  few lines to change in
/sd/source/core/drawdoc4.cxx (I think...)



> BTW printing transparent objects/shadows is an issue due to huge amount
> of printing data. You may know the message 'Document contains
> transparencies, do you want to print transparencies...' So we decided to
> go with a modified solid one, until this limitation is solved.

which is a most reasonable decision.

> Regarding the wizard the user feedback data (aka usage tracking) tells
> us that many users do use this wizard today. So it seems that disabling
> it would be no good idea without solving real need why users are using
> it today.
My guess would be that such a usage is related to a specific population,
but anyway as it's easy to disable it with an extension when deploying
the app, so it's not a problem.

Best,
Camille


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Re: Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?

Irné Barnard
  -------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [ux-discuss] Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?
From: Camille Moulin <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Date: 2010-10-08 22:47:10
> So, I think an easy and not expensive solution would be to choose the
> grey shades (4th design at the moment) as the default. I know it doesn't
> solve much, but it won't disrupt much either and il will soften things a
> little, for the price of  few lines to change in
> /sd/source/core/drawdoc4.cxx (I think...)
I think this non-feature of tables has been discussed before. Maybe a
way of temporarily fixing it would be to have "better" defaults. The
problem is "better" is more subjective than anything else. Maybe it's an
idea to check with usability reports, does anyone know if such data is
available? E.g. how many times do users change their table formats, and
which are the most popular colours, borders, fonts, etc.

This should not detract from actually fixing tables, it should just be
viewed as a stop-gap solution.

I see you've added some columns to the list to show the status (etc.).
Very good idea, at least now we can get some overall picture of what has
been discussed, what's new, what's rejected (and why, e.g. transparency
in shadows due to printing issues), and what's already in development.
I'm all for it, as long as it's going to be used and updated regularly. ;-)

--
Regards Irné Barnard
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Re: Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?

Frank Loehmann-2
Hi,

Am 11.10.2010 08:26, schrieb Irné Barnard:
 -------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [ux-discuss] Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?
From: Camille Moulin [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Date: 2010-10-08 22:47:10
So, I think an easy and not expensive solution would be to choose the
grey shades (4th design at the moment) as the default. I know it doesn't
solve much, but it won't disrupt much either and il will soften things a
little, for the price of  few lines to change in
/sd/source/core/drawdoc4.cxx (I think...)
I think this non-feature of tables has been discussed before. Maybe a way of temporarily fixing it would be to have "better" defaults. The problem is "better" is more subjective than anything else. Maybe it's an idea to check with usability reports, does anyone know if such data is available? E.g. how many times do users change their table formats, and which are the most popular colours, borders, fonts, etc.
I see many real documents just using the pure default format for text and tables. I think we should offer an expendable set of (pre)formatted tables/objects the user could choose from at the UI. The user should concentrate on the document content.

This should not detract from actually fixing tables, it should just be viewed as a stop-gap solution.
Yes, we will continue on those things within Project Renaissance for Writer. Currently we are preparing this next step.

I see you've added some columns to the list to show the status (etc.). Very good idea, at least now we can get some overall picture of what has been discussed, what's new, what's rejected (and why, e.g. transparency in shadows due to printing issues), and what's already in development. I'm all for it, as long as it's going to be used and updated regularly. ;-)

Best regards,

Frank

--


Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 882
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven

Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment



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Re: Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?

Camille Moulin-2
In reply to this post by Irné Barnard
On 11/10/2010 08:26, Irné Barnard wrote:
[...]
> I think this non-feature of tables has been discussed before. Maybe a
> way of temporarily fixing it would be to have "better" defaults. The
> problem is "better" is more subjective than anything else.

I agree ; that's why I was just aiming for "less bad" with the gray
scheme, as it's more neutral (that's a kind of objective criteria as it
means 0 saturation) and it's already part of the color schemes proposed.
I thought that would be an easy consensus.
You for instance, would you prefer the current Blues to the Greys?

> Maybe it's an
> idea to check with usability reports, does anyone know if such data is
> available? E.g. how many times do users change their table formats, and
> which are the most popular colours, borders, fonts, etc.

I'm not sure that would really help and I'm afraid that would take
really long to achieve something relevant.

> This should not detract from actually fixing tables, it should just be
> viewed as a stop-gap solution.
Yep : my idea is really to have 2 liner (tried it and it seems to work)
that helps a little bit in the meantime

>
> I see you've added some columns to the list to show the status (etc.).
> Very good idea, at least now we can get some overall picture of what has
> been discussed, what's new, what's rejected (and why, e.g. transparency
> in shadows due to printing issues), and what's already in development.

> I'm all for it, as long as it's going to be used and updated regularly. ;-)
 ;-)

One of the problems is that I don't have the information of what's
actually getting developed, and large Wiki tables are not easy to handle
(maybe I missed something) so I'm not that optimistic.


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Re: Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?

Irné Barnard
  -------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [ux-discuss] Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?
From: Camille Moulin <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Date: 2010-10-11 22:20:55
>
> You for instance, would you prefer the current Blues to the Greys?.
Actually I've never used any of OOo's default formats. They have never
been correct for my scenarios. I always create my own templates and then
start documents from them - in my line of work (Architecture) the
documents need to have very specific formatting varying between
technical specifications (black on white ONLY with specific section /
paragraph numbering) to presentation brochures (similar to what a
magazine would look like). Thus to me the defaults are a near non-issue.

And from this I know that most "defaults" are not actually program
related, but rather template related (at least formatting defaults are).
So most of this can be solved by simply allowing the user to select a
default template from a list ... but wait, isn't that already possible?

>
> I'm not sure that would really help and I'm afraid that would take
> really long to achieve something relevant.
Well, I just thought it would be the least time consuming method - since
there's already user data available. I thought it would simply need a
consolidation to extract the necessary items. But if you think a
discussion until consensus would be a shorter route I wish you luck ;-)

> One of the problems is that I don't have the information of what's
> actually getting developed, and large Wiki tables are not easy to handle
> (maybe I missed something) so I'm not that optimistic.
Which is why the list should be edited by those in the know as well.
It's an impossible task for only one person, not because it might be a
lot of work - but rather because they won't know of everything that's
going on.

--
Regards Irné Barnard
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Re: Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?

Camille Moulin-2
On 12/10/2010 08:20, Irné Barnard wrote:
>  -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re: [ux-discuss] Renaissance: Better Defaults - Next step ?
> From: Camille Moulin <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
[...]
> And from this I know that most "defaults" are not actually program
> related, but rather template related (at least formatting defaults are).
> So most of this can be solved by simply allowing the user to select a
> default template from a list ... but wait, isn't that already possible?

There might be a misunderstanding: I was talking about native tables in
Impress.
So no, you can't change the default colors nor the colors proposed in
the side pane, because they're hard coded in the application
(/sd/source/core/drawdoc4.cxx ).
[...]
>> One of the problems is that I don't have the information of what's
>> actually getting developed, and large Wiki tables are not easy to handle
>> (maybe I missed something) so I'm not that optimistic.
> Which is why the list should be edited by those in the know as well.
> It's an impossible task for only one person, not because it might be a
> lot of work - but rather because they won't know of everything that's
> going on.
Agreed.

Best,
Camille


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