Remove Non ODF Warning?

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Remove Non ODF Warning?

Frank Loehmann-2
Hi,

From time to time I get feedback that the dialog if you really want to save in a non ODF (or standard) format is not understand by users. This message is shown, i.e. if you save a text document in RTF and can be suppressed by an option within the dialog. We have already changed the dialog in the past (new message and 'speaking' buttons instead of Yes/No ones), but there are still reports about problems with this dialog. Mainly the button 'Keep Current Format' is criticized today.

IMHO any question when saving is problematic and could lead a user to fail saving the file. The problem at this point is that not all the data of the current document might be saved (we only assume here, we do not know!) in the chosen (export) file format.

I see different solutions for this issue:
a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export Format' (another try to fix this issue).
b) Disable this request by default.

Feedback welcome.

Best regards,

Frank

--


Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
Phone: +49 40 23646882
Oracle Open Office Software

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
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Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Jaron Kuppers
Hi Frank,

This dialog has been a thorn in our side for some time.  I oppose a "yes/no"
format since it can be ambiguous as to what the user is doing and may
promote behavior whereby the user simply clicks yes to get rid of the dialog
box without actually reading it.

Would it be possible to dynamically change the text of the "keep current
format" button to the actual format?  For example "keep .doc format" or
"keep .csv format."  I feel that the vast majority of people are now
familiar with the file formats and would benefit from them being explicitly
stated in the button.

Cheers,
Jaron



2010/11/5 Frank Loehmann <[hidden email]>

> Hi,
>
> From time to time I get feedback that the dialog if you really want to save
> in a non ODF (or standard) format is not understand by users. This message
> is shown, i.e. if you save a text document in RTF and can be suppressed by
> an option within the dialog. We have already changed the dialog in the past
> (new message and 'speaking' buttons instead of Yes/No ones), but there are
> still reports about problems with this dialog. Mainly the button 'Keep
> Current Format' is criticized today.
>
> IMHO any question when saving is problematic and could lead a user to fail
> saving the file. The problem at this point is that not all the data of the
> current document might be saved (we only assume here, we do not know!) in
> the chosen (export) file format.
>
> I see different solutions for this issue:
> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export Format'
> (another try to fix this issue).
> b) Disable this request by default.
>
> Feedback welcome.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Frank
>
> --
>
>
> Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
> Phone: +49 40 23646882
> Oracle Open Office Software
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
>
> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
> Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven
>
>
>
>
> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect
> the environment
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Graham Lauder
In reply to this post by Frank Loehmann-2
On Saturday 06 Nov 2010 07:03:18 Frank Loehmann wrote:

> Hi,
>
> From time to time I get feedback that the dialog if you really want to save
> in a non ODF (or standard) format is not understand by users. This message
> is shown, i.e. if you save a text document in RTF and can be suppressed by
> an option within the dialog. We have already changed the dialog in the
> past (new message and 'speaking' buttons instead of Yes/No ones), but
> there are still reports about problems with this dialog. Mainly the button
> 'Keep Current Format' is criticized today.
>
> IMHO any question when saving is problematic and could lead a user to fail
> saving the file. The problem at this point is that not all the data of the
> current document might be saved (we only assume here, we do not know!) in
> the chosen (export) file format.
>
> I see different solutions for this issue:
> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export Format'
> (another try to fix this issue). b) Disable this request by default.
>
> Feedback welcome.

Hi Frank,

This is one of those things that requires the wisdom of Solomon to figure out
and frankly I don't think that anyone in the community can probably make a
call on it, we're all too biased, naturally.  I mean I'd like it to say
something like:  "Saving to this horrible proprietary format could cause
genital warts, frequent headaches and explosive diarrhoea as opposed to our
wonderful native format which will bring good fortune and help you win the
Lotto."  ;D

Of course this is never going to fly, what the solution is I'm not sure.  
However, there is probably a greater problem out there, from an
interoperability standpoint, with people blindly saving to ODF.

Perhaps we need an additional bit in the file menu.  "Save to ODF" and "Save
to Other" or MS File

Not sure, not Solomon, unfortunately

Cheers
GL  


--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.

INGOTs Assessor Trainer
(International Grades in Open Technologies)
www.theingots.org

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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Bernhard Dippold
In reply to this post by Frank Loehmann-2
Hi Frank,

Frank Loehmann schrieb:

> Hi,
>
> From time to time I get feedback that the dialog if you really want
> to save in a non ODF (or standard) format is not understand by
> users. [...]
>
> I see different solutions for this issue:
>
> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export
> Format' (another try to fix this issue).
 >
 > b) Disable this request by default.

c) Provide a third option (Standard behaviour?):
"Save an additional ODF file with all your content"

Best regards

Bernhard

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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Christoph Noack-4
In reply to this post by Frank Loehmann-2
Hi Frank, all!

Am Freitag, den 05.11.2010, 19:03 +0100 schrieb Frank Loehmann:
[...]
> IMHO any question when saving is problematic and could lead a user to
> fail saving the file. The problem at this point is that not all the
> data of the current document might be saved (we only assume here, we
> do not know!) in the chosen (export) file format.

Hhm, isn't the "we only assume here" the real problem? If we cannot tell
the user what is going on, the dialog doesn't help at all. As far as I
know, MS Office lists the problematic topics, so the user can make a
guess what the dialog when looking at the content.

As a intermediate solution - would it be possible to at least describe
the "fidelity" of the chosen file format? For example, in .doc the
chances are rather low to really lose content or formatting.

> I see different solutions for this issue:
> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export
> Format' (another try to fix this issue).

Just a guess - since we do have separate export capability (we discussed
that quite some time ago, e.g. when looking at the "Preview in Web
Browser" issue), this might be confusing as well.

So additional ideas:
1) Change the button from "Keep Current Format" to "Save Anyway" or "Use
Foreign File Format" (or something like that).
2) Provide the format "Save in DOC format" and explain the "DOC" in the
text above (already stating the detailed name of the export format").

> b) Disable this request by default.

I don't know ... I miss the information why this dialog has been
introduced (customer requests, just being cautious, ...). Is there any
data from the OOo Improvement Program? How many abort or save in ODF?

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Cor Nouws
In reply to this post by Jaron Kuppers
Hi all,

Jaron Kuppers wrote (05-11-10 19:32)

> Would it be possible to dynamically change the text of the "keep current
> format" button to the actual format?  For example "keep .doc format" or
> "keep .csv format."  I feel that the vast majority of people are now
> familiar with the file formats and would benefit from them being explicitly
> stated in the button.

IMO a good suggestion.
Cor

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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Cor Nouws
In reply to this post by Bernhard Dippold
Bernhard Dippold wrote (06-11-10 00:06)

>> I see different solutions for this issue:
>>
>> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export
>> Format' (another try to fix this issue).
>>
>> b) Disable this request by default.
>
> c) Provide a third option (Standard behaviour?):
> "Save an additional ODF file with all your content"

I am afraid tat this will add extra confusion for part of the users, who
then have to find out which file on their HD is what/the correct one etc..

Regards,
Cor

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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Frank Loehmann-2
In reply to this post by Bernhard Dippold
Hi Bernhard,

Am 06.11.2010 um 00:06 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:

> Hi Frank,
>
> Frank Loehmann schrieb:
>> Hi,
>>
>> From time to time I get feedback that the dialog if you really want
>> to save in a non ODF (or standard) format is not understand by
>> users. [...]
>>
>> I see different solutions for this issue:
>>
>> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export
>> Format' (another try to fix this issue).
> >
> > b) Disable this request by default.
>
> c) Provide a third option (Standard behaviour?):
> "Save an additional ODF file with all your content"
OK. That is the way iWork handles foreign file formats on the Mac. This is a little bit like moving all foreign file format filters to the export function. Today export covers only formats that can not be imported again, because one can set any file format as default file format in Tools-Options-Loadd/Save.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard

Best regards,

Frank

>
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--


Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
Phone: +49 40 23646882
Oracle Open Office Software

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven




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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Frank Loehmann-2
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack-4
Hi Christoph,

Am 06.11.2010 um 00:41 schrieb Christoph Noack:

> Hi Frank, all!
>
> Am Freitag, den 05.11.2010, 19:03 +0100 schrieb Frank Loehmann:
> [...]
>> IMHO any question when saving is problematic and could lead a user to
>> fail saving the file. The problem at this point is that not all the
>> data of the current document might be saved (we only assume here, we
>> do not know!) in the chosen (export) file format.
>
> Hhm, isn't the "we only assume here" the real problem? If we cannot tell
> the user what is going on, the dialog doesn't help at all. As far as I
> know, MS Office lists the problematic topics, so the user can make a
> guess what the dialog when looking at the content.
Yes, I agree. But this is one is not easy to solve. Sure we could look for some elements we know for making problems, but not for all known issues.
>
> As a intermediate solution - would it be possible to at least describe
> the "fidelity" of the chosen file format? For example, in .doc the
> chances are rather low to really lose content or formatting.

Personally I doubt that the dialog is read at all :-) That is why I changed the button to speaking ones.

>
>> I see different solutions for this issue:
>> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export
>> Format' (another try to fix this issue).
>
> Just a guess - since we do have separate export capability (we discussed
> that quite some time ago, e.g. when looking at the "Preview in Web
> Browser" issue), this might be confusing as well.
>
> So additional ideas:
> 1) Change the button from "Keep Current Format" to "Save Anyway" or "Use
> Foreign File Format" (or something like that).
'Save Anyway' was also on my mind.

> 2) Provide the format "Save in DOC format" and explain the "DOC" in the
> text above (already stating the detailed name of the export format").

So speaking buttons stating the file format. Will be a problem of button space at least in some languages.
>
>> b) Disable this request by default.
>
> I don't know ... I miss the information why this dialog has been
> introduced (customer requests, just being cautious, ...). Is there any
> data from the OOo Improvement Program? How many abort or save in ODF?

This one is a good old pal. I think it is older that I am ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph

Best regards,

Frank
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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--


Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
Phone: +49 40 23646882
Oracle Open Office Software

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven




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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Frank Loehmann-2
In reply to this post by Graham Lauder
Hi Graham,

Am 05.11.2010 um 22:47 schrieb Graham Lauder:

> On Saturday 06 Nov 2010 07:03:18 Frank Loehmann wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> From time to time I get feedback that the dialog if you really want to save
>> in a non ODF (or standard) format is not understand by users. This message
>> is shown, i.e. if you save a text document in RTF and can be suppressed by
>> an option within the dialog. We have already changed the dialog in the
>> past (new message and 'speaking' buttons instead of Yes/No ones), but
>> there are still reports about problems with this dialog. Mainly the button
>> 'Keep Current Format' is criticized today.
>>
>> IMHO any question when saving is problematic and could lead a user to fail
>> saving the file. The problem at this point is that not all the data of the
>> current document might be saved (we only assume here, we do not know!) in
>> the chosen (export) file format.
>>
>> I see different solutions for this issue:
>> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export Format'
>> (another try to fix this issue). b) Disable this request by default.
>>
>> Feedback welcome.
>
> Hi Frank,
>
> This is one of those things that requires the wisdom of Solomon to figure out
> and frankly I don't think that anyone in the community can probably make a
> call on it, we're all too biased, naturally.  I mean I'd like it to say
> something like:  "Saving to this horrible proprietary format could cause
> genital warts, frequent headaches and explosive diarrhoea as opposed to our
> wonderful native format which will bring good fortune and help you win the
> Lotto."  ;D
>
> Of course this is never going to fly, what the solution is I'm not sure.  
> However, there is probably a greater problem out there, from an
> interoperability standpoint, with people blindly saving to ODF.
We could also think about showing this warning only if the current file was loaded in a different format than ODF and the user hit save and do not show it, if the user selected the file format in 'Save As' dialog herself.
>
> Perhaps we need an additional bit in the file menu.  "Save to ODF" and "Save
> to Other" or MS File
We already have these entries in form of Save and Export, but currently Export is not used that way.
>
> Not sure, not Solomon, unfortunately
>
Thanks for your feedback.

> Cheers
> GL  
>
Best regards,

Frank

>
> --
> Graham Lauder,
> OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
> http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
>
> OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
>
> INGOTs Assessor Trainer
> (International Grades in Open Technologies)
> www.theingots.org
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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--


Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
Phone: +49 40 23646882
Oracle Open Office Software

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven




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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Frank Loehmann-2
In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
Hi,

Am 06.11.2010 um 09:25 schrieb Cor Nouws:

> Hi all,
>
> Jaron Kuppers wrote (05-11-10 19:32)
>
>> Would it be possible to dynamically change the text of the "keep current
>> format" button to the actual format?  For example "keep .doc format" or
>> "keep .csv format."  I feel that the vast majority of people are now
>> familiar with the file formats and would benefit from them being explicitly
>> stated in the button.
>
> IMO a good suggestion.
> Cor
Should be possible, but we do not know how long this text will be in some languages. I think we would need a new control like already used within Windows 7. There you can use a kind of rich listbox as a button. So you have a heading and the explanation direct below it on the 'button'.

Best regards,

Frank

--


Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
Phone: +49 40 23646882
Oracle Open Office Software

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Regina Henschel
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack-4
Hi Christoph, hi all,

Christoph Noack schrieb:
[..]

>
> So additional ideas:
> 1) Change the button from "Keep Current Format" to "Save Anyway" or "Use
> Foreign File Format" (or something like that).

The problem with "Keep Current Format" is, that the user will understand
the text "Keep Current Format" as "Do not change, but keep odf", because
before the dialog is finished the "current" format is odf. Therefore
both version of Christoph are better than the current text.

Is it possible to use the actual chosen format instead of 'Foreign'?

kind regards
Regina

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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Malte Timmermann-2
In reply to this post by Frank Loehmann-2
I also never liked "Keep Current Format" - on Save-As, it's not the
current, but the selected format.

I would prefer the good old Yes / No (= use ODF) / Cancel stuff.

You might lose data when using this format, do you want to continue? Yes
/ Save as ODF /Cancel.

BTW - currently there is no cancel push button, but when I press the
dialog's cancel button then it seems to result in "Save as ODF", not in
cancel. Unexpected and surprising.

I also would remove the  paragraph with "use latest ODF file format...".

a) How many users do actually know what ODF means?
b) Is it really the latest version, or is it the version that I
configured in tools/options, so it even might result in ODF 1.0 and data
loss anyway because of using ODF 1.2 features?

Last but not least, wrt Frank's suggestion below:

> We could also think about showing this warning only if the current file was loaded in a different format than ODF and the user hit save and do not show it, if the user selected the file format in 'Save As' dialog herself.

I see it the other way round: When the user opens some rtf/doc document.

a) How likely is it that he makes modifications that he can only save in
ODF now?

b) How likely is it that he actually wants to store into a different
format, which also results in creating a new file and leaving behind the
old file with out dated content?

So if we differenciate when to show the dialog, I would show it when
opening an ODF document or creating a new document and then chosing an
other filter, but not when opening some existing document and pressing
save. Of course, then it would be great to figure out if the user would
lose content, and show the warning then also - but it's not very likely
we can have that for all the different file formats...

Malte.

Frank Loehmann wrote, On 11/06/10 10:26:

> Hi Graham,
>
> Am 05.11.2010 um 22:47 schrieb Graham Lauder:
>
>> On Saturday 06 Nov 2010 07:03:18 Frank Loehmann wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> From time to time I get feedback that the dialog if you really want to save
>>> in a non ODF (or standard) format is not understand by users. This message
>>> is shown, i.e. if you save a text document in RTF and can be suppressed by
>>> an option within the dialog. We have already changed the dialog in the
>>> past (new message and 'speaking' buttons instead of Yes/No ones), but
>>> there are still reports about problems with this dialog. Mainly the button
>>> 'Keep Current Format' is criticized today.
>>>
>>> IMHO any question when saving is problematic and could lead a user to fail
>>> saving the file. The problem at this point is that not all the data of the
>>> current document might be saved (we only assume here, we do not know!) in
>>> the chosen (export) file format.
>>>
>>> I see different solutions for this issue:
>>> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export Format'
>>> (another try to fix this issue). b) Disable this request by default.
>>>
>>> Feedback welcome.
>>
>> Hi Frank,
>>
>> This is one of those things that requires the wisdom of Solomon to figure out
>> and frankly I don't think that anyone in the community can probably make a
>> call on it, we're all too biased, naturally.  I mean I'd like it to say
>> something like:  "Saving to this horrible proprietary format could cause
>> genital warts, frequent headaches and explosive diarrhoea as opposed to our
>> wonderful native format which will bring good fortune and help you win the
>> Lotto."  ;D
>>
>> Of course this is never going to fly, what the solution is I'm not sure.  
>> However, there is probably a greater problem out there, from an
>> interoperability standpoint, with people blindly saving to ODF.
>
> We could also think about showing this warning only if the current file was loaded in a different format than ODF and the user hit save and do not show it, if the user selected the file format in 'Save As' dialog herself.
>>
>> Perhaps we need an additional bit in the file menu.  "Save to ODF" and "Save
>> to Other" or MS File
> We already have these entries in form of Save and Export, but currently Export is not used that way.
>>
>> Not sure, not Solomon, unfortunately
>>
> Thanks for your feedback.
>
>> Cheers
>> GL  
>>
> Best regards,
>
> Frank
>>
>> --
>> Graham Lauder,
>> OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
>> http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
>>
>> OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
>>
>> INGOTs Assessor Trainer
>> (International Grades in Open Technologies)
>> www.theingots.org
>>
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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Frank Loehmann-2
Hi Malte,

Am 12.11.2010 um 12:26 schrieb Malte Timmermann:

> I also never liked "Keep Current Format" - on Save-As, it's not the
> current, but the selected format.

I know ;-)
>
> I would prefer the good old Yes / No (= use ODF) / Cancel stuff.

I think Yes/No buttons are no good idea, because you have to read the whole question before. I think that many people will not read the warning text at all.
>
> You might lose data when using this format, do you want to continue? Yes
> / Save as ODF /Cancel.
>
> BTW - currently there is no cancel push button, but when I press the
> dialog's cancel button then it seems to result in "Save as ODF", not in
> cancel. Unexpected and surprising.

You mean the dialog closer, right? Indeed not a good behavior.
>
> I also would remove the  paragraph with "use latest ODF file format...".
>
> a) How many users do actually know what ODF means?

Not many I guess.

> b) Is it really the latest version, or is it the version that I
> configured in tools/options, so it even might result in ODF 1.0 and data
> loss anyway because of using ODF 1.2 features?

Good point. That dialog in Tools-Options once had a warning shown if you change ODF version to other that the most current one.  
>
> Last but not least, wrt Frank's suggestion below:
>
>> We could also think about showing this warning only if the current file was loaded in a different format than ODF and the user hit save and do not show it, if the user selected the file format in 'Save As' dialog herself.
>
> I see it the other way round: When the user opens some rtf/doc document.
>
> a) How likely is it that he makes modifications that he can only save in
> ODF now?

We do not know, if the there is a problem, that is our main problem today. The idea was to reduce the appearance of that modal, process breaking message.

>
> b) How likely is it that he actually wants to store into a different
> format, which also results in creating a new file and leaving behind the
> old file with out dated content?
>
> So if we differenciate when to show the dialog, I would show it when
> opening an ODF document or creating a new document and then chosing an
> other filter, but not when opening some existing document and pressing
> save. Of course, then it would be great to figure out if the user would
> lose content, and show the warning then also - but it's not very likely
> we can have that for all the different file formats...
>

There is another possibility that will be available with the upcoming modeless information bar. Then we could show a modeless note after saving in a different format than ODF or the standard format. Then the user could save in a different format if she wants to, because without closing nothing is lost in the current document. But this modeless info does not work if the user closes a modified alien document...
 
The more I read/write about this issue the more I tend to disable the warning by default (and to change the button to 'Save Anyway' + adding a 'Cancel' one). We just unsettle many users with this general warning, BTW Does anybody remember when we introduced this message? I have never seen such a general message in other products.

Best regards,

Frank

> Malte.
>
> Frank Loehmann wrote, On 11/06/10 10:26:
>> Hi Graham,
>>
>> Am 05.11.2010 um 22:47 schrieb Graham Lauder:
>>
>>> On Saturday 06 Nov 2010 07:03:18 Frank Loehmann wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> From time to time I get feedback that the dialog if you really want to save
>>>> in a non ODF (or standard) format is not understand by users. This message
>>>> is shown, i.e. if you save a text document in RTF and can be suppressed by
>>>> an option within the dialog. We have already changed the dialog in the
>>>> past (new message and 'speaking' buttons instead of Yes/No ones), but
>>>> there are still reports about problems with this dialog. Mainly the button
>>>> 'Keep Current Format' is criticized today.
>>>>
>>>> IMHO any question when saving is problematic and could lead a user to fail
>>>> saving the file. The problem at this point is that not all the data of the
>>>> current document might be saved (we only assume here, we do not know!) in
>>>> the chosen (export) file format.
>>>>
>>>> I see different solutions for this issue:
>>>> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export Format'
>>>> (another try to fix this issue). b) Disable this request by default.
>>>>
>>>> Feedback welcome.
>>>
>>> Hi Frank,
>>>
>>> This is one of those things that requires the wisdom of Solomon to figure out
>>> and frankly I don't think that anyone in the community can probably make a
>>> call on it, we're all too biased, naturally.  I mean I'd like it to say
>>> something like:  "Saving to this horrible proprietary format could cause
>>> genital warts, frequent headaches and explosive diarrhoea as opposed to our
>>> wonderful native format which will bring good fortune and help you win the
>>> Lotto."  ;D
>>>
>>> Of course this is never going to fly, what the solution is I'm not sure.  
>>> However, there is probably a greater problem out there, from an
>>> interoperability standpoint, with people blindly saving to ODF.
>>
>> We could also think about showing this warning only if the current file was loaded in a different format than ODF and the user hit save and do not show it, if the user selected the file format in 'Save As' dialog herself.
>>>
>>> Perhaps we need an additional bit in the file menu.  "Save to ODF" and "Save
>>> to Other" or MS File
>> We already have these entries in form of Save and Export, but currently Export is not used that way.
>>>
>>> Not sure, not Solomon, unfortunately
>>>
>> Thanks for your feedback.
>>
>>> Cheers
>>> GL  
>>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Frank
>>>
>>> --
>>> Graham Lauder,
>>> OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
>>> http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
>>>
>>> OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
>>>
>>> INGOTs Assessor Trainer
>>> (International Grades in Open Technologies)
>>> www.theingots.org
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
>> Phone: +49 40 23646882
>> Oracle Open Office Software
>>
>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg
>>
>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
>> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
>> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
>>
>> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
>> Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
>> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
>> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>>
>>
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Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
Phone: +49 40 23646882
Oracle Open Office Software

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven




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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Malte Timmermann-2
Hi Frank,

your comment that most people don't read the dialog, and your thinking
that the warning should be disabled by default, look consistent to me.

If people don't read it, you shouldn't bother them to press a button
that they don't understand ;)

Malte.

Frank Loehmann wrote, On 11/12/10 13:51:

> Hi Malte,
>
> Am 12.11.2010 um 12:26 schrieb Malte Timmermann:
>
>> I also never liked "Keep Current Format" - on Save-As, it's not the
>> current, but the selected format.
>
> I know ;-)
>>
>> I would prefer the good old Yes / No (= use ODF) / Cancel stuff.
>
> I think Yes/No buttons are no good idea, because you have to read the whole question before. I think that many people will not read the warning text at all.
>>
>> You might lose data when using this format, do you want to continue? Yes
>> / Save as ODF /Cancel.
>>
>> BTW - currently there is no cancel push button, but when I press the
>> dialog's cancel button then it seems to result in "Save as ODF", not in
>> cancel. Unexpected and surprising.
>
> You mean the dialog closer, right? Indeed not a good behavior.
>>
>> I also would remove the  paragraph with "use latest ODF file format...".
>>
>> a) How many users do actually know what ODF means?
>
> Not many I guess.
>
>> b) Is it really the latest version, or is it the version that I
>> configured in tools/options, so it even might result in ODF 1.0 and data
>> loss anyway because of using ODF 1.2 features?
>
> Good point. That dialog in Tools-Options once had a warning shown if you change ODF version to other that the most current one.  
>>
>> Last but not least, wrt Frank's suggestion below:
>>
>>> We could also think about showing this warning only if the current file was loaded in a different format than ODF and the user hit save and do not show it, if the user selected the file format in 'Save As' dialog herself.
>>
>> I see it the other way round: When the user opens some rtf/doc document.
>>
>> a) How likely is it that he makes modifications that he can only save in
>> ODF now?
>
> We do not know, if the there is a problem, that is our main problem today. The idea was to reduce the appearance of that modal, process breaking message.
>
>>
>> b) How likely is it that he actually wants to store into a different
>> format, which also results in creating a new file and leaving behind the
>> old file with out dated content?
>>
>> So if we differenciate when to show the dialog, I would show it when
>> opening an ODF document or creating a new document and then chosing an
>> other filter, but not when opening some existing document and pressing
>> save. Of course, then it would be great to figure out if the user would
>> lose content, and show the warning then also - but it's not very likely
>> we can have that for all the different file formats...
>>
>
>
> There is another possibility that will be available with the upcoming modeless information bar. Then we could show a modeless note after saving in a different format than ODF or the standard format. Then the user could save in a different format if she wants to, because without closing nothing is lost in the current document. But this modeless info does not work if the user closes a modified alien document...
>  
> The more I read/write about this issue the more I tend to disable the warning by default (and to change the button to 'Save Anyway' + adding a 'Cancel' one). We just unsettle many users with this general warning, BTW Does anybody remember when we introduced this message? I have never seen such a general message in other products.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Frank
>
>> Malte.
>>
>> Frank Loehmann wrote, On 11/06/10 10:26:
>>> Hi Graham,
>>>
>>> Am 05.11.2010 um 22:47 schrieb Graham Lauder:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday 06 Nov 2010 07:03:18 Frank Loehmann wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> From time to time I get feedback that the dialog if you really want to save
>>>>> in a non ODF (or standard) format is not understand by users. This message
>>>>> is shown, i.e. if you save a text document in RTF and can be suppressed by
>>>>> an option within the dialog. We have already changed the dialog in the
>>>>> past (new message and 'speaking' buttons instead of Yes/No ones), but
>>>>> there are still reports about problems with this dialog. Mainly the button
>>>>> 'Keep Current Format' is criticized today.
>>>>>
>>>>> IMHO any question when saving is problematic and could lead a user to fail
>>>>> saving the file. The problem at this point is that not all the data of the
>>>>> current document might be saved (we only assume here, we do not know!) in
>>>>> the chosen (export) file format.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see different solutions for this issue:
>>>>> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export Format'
>>>>> (another try to fix this issue). b) Disable this request by default.
>>>>>
>>>>> Feedback welcome.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Frank,
>>>>
>>>> This is one of those things that requires the wisdom of Solomon to figure out
>>>> and frankly I don't think that anyone in the community can probably make a
>>>> call on it, we're all too biased, naturally.  I mean I'd like it to say
>>>> something like:  "Saving to this horrible proprietary format could cause
>>>> genital warts, frequent headaches and explosive diarrhoea as opposed to our
>>>> wonderful native format which will bring good fortune and help you win the
>>>> Lotto."  ;D
>>>>
>>>> Of course this is never going to fly, what the solution is I'm not sure.  
>>>> However, there is probably a greater problem out there, from an
>>>> interoperability standpoint, with people blindly saving to ODF.
>>>
>>> We could also think about showing this warning only if the current file was loaded in a different format than ODF and the user hit save and do not show it, if the user selected the file format in 'Save As' dialog herself.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps we need an additional bit in the file menu.  "Save to ODF" and "Save
>>>> to Other" or MS File
>>> We already have these entries in form of Save and Export, but currently Export is not used that way.
>>>>
>>>> Not sure, not Solomon, unfortunately
>>>>
>>> Thanks for your feedback.
>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> GL  
>>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Graham Lauder,
>>>> OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
>>>> http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
>>>>
>>>> OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
>>>>
>>>> INGOTs Assessor Trainer
>>>> (International Grades in Open Technologies)
>>>> www.theingots.org
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
>>> Phone: +49 40 23646882
>>> Oracle Open Office Software
>>>
>>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg
>>>
>>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
>>> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
>>> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
>>>
>>> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
>>> Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
>>> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
>>> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>
>
>
> Frank Loehmann | User Experience Manager
> Phone: +49 40 23646882
> Oracle Open Office Software
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
>
> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
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> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
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Re: Remove Non ODF Warning?

Goran Rakic
In reply to this post by Frank Loehmann-2
У пет, 05. 11 2010. у 19:03 +0100, Frank Loehmann пише:
> a) Change the button from 'Keep Current Format' to 'Keep Export Format' (another try to fix this issue).

In the Serbian localization we are using "Keep the chosen format". The
dialog is saying that the chosen format may not be able to represent all
document properties, and options given are to switch to the ODF or to
keep the chosen format.

Please do not remove/hide the dialog, it is very important to warn the
user that he or she may lost document data when saving into the foreign
format.

Kind regards,
Goran Rakic




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