[Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

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[Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg

Hi,

I'd like to ask about a decision that needs to be made for upcoming OOo
3.3 which features the new and fixed OpenSymbol font (see issue 105084).
  http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=105084

Previously (up to, and including OOo 3.2) a formula like:
    %MU %PI "  " nitalic {%MU %PI} "  " italic {%MU %PI} newline
    %eta %kappa "  " nitalic {%eta %kappa} "  " italic {%eta %kappa}
would have been rendered as in 'mathOSF_OOo3.2.png'.

Please notice that you can't get a straight %PI it is slanted or even
more slanted. :-( This however did not apply to %MU since the first
comes from the StarSymbol/OpenSymbol font and the latter actually from
TimesNewRoman since the old OpenSymbol font did only feature those
non-Latin-looking Greek characters. That of course was a bug of the old
font.

This problem (and others) are now fixed in the new OpenSymbol font that
will come with OOo 3.0.

Currently(!) with a developers build like DEV300_m84 the above formula
will be rendered as in 'mathOSF_OOo3.3.png'. You can easily see that
'italic' and 'nitalic' commands now have the proper effect on the
characters.
Also the non-altered charatcer (see first column) are defined as slanted
by default right now since that is visually the best equivalent to the
old look. However that is what I'am unsure about...

The question is: should the Greek lower- and upper case characters be
straight or slanted by default?


In every formula at least one of the sample cases
    '%PI'
    'nitalic PI' or
    'italic PI'
will look different compared to OOo 3.2 if rendered anew in OOo 3.3!
(And it can't be fixed on import.) Also changing the default for Greek
symbols to straight will not solve this since then only one of the other
cases will turn out different.


If we were to create the Greek symnbols from scratch without any regard
to how it looked like in older versions we would simply take a look at
about any Math school book or at LaTex. In that case our solution would be:

Solution 1)
- Greek uppercase characters should be straight. They are usually used
for operators or as set names, and those are usually layouted straigth.
- Greek lowercase characters should be slanted. They normally get used
as variables and those have a slanted layout.


Other possible solutions are:

Solution 2)
- All Greek characters should be slanted by default since that is the
best visual equivalent to OOo 3.2 (at least if no modifiers like
'italic' and 'nitalic' are used).

Solution 3)
- All Greek characters should be straight since that is what the
unmodified charcters in the font look like.


Solution 4)
We'll choose one of the above but still like to 'work-around' the
probably rather often need to explicitly write one of the modifiers
before the character. Thus we are going to introduce new 'shortcuts' for
those. It could be one or both of the following
  4a) For each Greek character introduce another one (prefixed with i):
      E.g for %PI add %iPI, where %iPI refers to an italic uppercase PI
  4b) For each Greek character introduce another one:
      E.g for %PI add %nPI, where %nPI refers to a non-italic straight
      version of the character.


Thus the choices to make are
  - one of 1), 2) and 3)
and
  - 4a) and/or 4b) or none of those


Please tell us the favored solution.


Regards,
Thomas


















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Re: [users] [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg

Here are the links for the two images that got removed:

http://www.mediafire.com/?z50tkdzovym
http://www.mediafire.com/?myklqznynik

Thomas



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Re: [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Irné Barnard
In reply to this post by Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg
I'd like to add a further option 5:
5a)    If one of 1 or 3 is chosen, a macro should be created which would
"translate" any Greek letter to be prefixed with the italic modifier.
This so the user can quickly change the appearance if (and only if) they
do want the old 3.2 look. If option 4a is chosen, it could be changed to
this new 'i##' code instead of the modifier.

5b)    If option 2 is chosen, the reverse of above should then be
implemented. So the user can "quickly" change to 'nitalic' if they don't
want the old look, but rather the more standardised format. This should
have 2 versions: One where both upper & lower case is "straightened",
the other where onlu upper case is "straightened".

5c)    Introduce both 5a & 5b irrespective of 1, 2 & 3.

--
Regards Irné Barnard

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Re: [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Jaron Kuppers
In reply to this post by Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg
Hi Thomas,

I would vote for Solution 3 as the default.  If users prefer a slanted
character they can always intuitively italicize the character but it seems
to me that users may find it unintuitive to "unslant" a character.  On a
personal note, as I use greek characters a lot in research papers and the
like, I tend to prefer straight characters by default.

So then logically I also support Solution 4a, (and Irné's Solution 5a).

Cheers,
Jaron Kuppers




On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to ask about a decision that needs to be made for upcoming OOo
> 3.3 which features the new and fixed OpenSymbol font (see issue 105084).
>  http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=105084
>
> Previously (up to, and including OOo 3.2) a formula like:
>    %MU %PI "  " nitalic {%MU %PI} "  " italic {%MU %PI} newline
>    %eta %kappa "  " nitalic {%eta %kappa} "  " italic {%eta %kappa}
> would have been rendered as in 'mathOSF_OOo3.2.png'.
>
> Please notice that you can't get a straight %PI it is slanted or even
> more slanted. :-( This however did not apply to %MU since the first
> comes from the StarSymbol/OpenSymbol font and the latter actually from
> TimesNewRoman since the old OpenSymbol font did only feature those
> non-Latin-looking Greek characters. That of course was a bug of the old
> font.
>
> This problem (and others) are now fixed in the new OpenSymbol font that
> will come with OOo 3.0.
>
> Currently(!) with a developers build like DEV300_m84 the above formula
> will be rendered as in 'mathOSF_OOo3.3.png'. You can easily see that
> 'italic' and 'nitalic' commands now have the proper effect on the
> characters.
> Also the non-altered charatcer (see first column) are defined as slanted
> by default right now since that is visually the best equivalent to the
> old look. However that is what I'am unsure about...
>
> The question is: should the Greek lower- and upper case characters be
> straight or slanted by default?
>
>
> In every formula at least one of the sample cases
>    '%PI'
>    'nitalic PI' or
>    'italic PI'
> will look different compared to OOo 3.2 if rendered anew in OOo 3.3!
> (And it can't be fixed on import.) Also changing the default for Greek
> symbols to straight will not solve this since then only one of the other
> cases will turn out different.
>
>
> If we were to create the Greek symnbols from scratch without any regard
> to how it looked like in older versions we would simply take a look at
> about any Math school book or at LaTex. In that case our solution would be:
>
> Solution 1)
> - Greek uppercase characters should be straight. They are usually used
> for operators or as set names, and those are usually layouted straigth.
> - Greek lowercase characters should be slanted. They normally get used
> as variables and those have a slanted layout.
>
>
> Other possible solutions are:
>
> Solution 2)
> - All Greek characters should be slanted by default since that is the
> best visual equivalent to OOo 3.2 (at least if no modifiers like
> 'italic' and 'nitalic' are used).
>
> Solution 3)
> - All Greek characters should be straight since that is what the
> unmodified charcters in the font look like.
>
>
> Solution 4)
> We'll choose one of the above but still like to 'work-around' the
> probably rather often need to explicitly write one of the modifiers
> before the character. Thus we are going to introduce new 'shortcuts' for
> those. It could be one or both of the following
>  4a) For each Greek character introduce another one (prefixed with i):
>      E.g for %PI add %iPI, where %iPI refers to an italic uppercase PI
>  4b) For each Greek character introduce another one:
>      E.g for %PI add %nPI, where %nPI refers to a non-italic straight
>      version of the character.
>
>
> Thus the choices to make are
>  - one of 1), 2) and 3)
> and
>  - 4a) and/or 4b) or none of those
>
>
> Please tell us the favored solution.
>
>
> Regards,
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Vamsi Kodali-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg
Thomas,

I vote for Solution 3. As a researcher, I often use several greek
characters in the text. While the LaTeX way makes sense for formulae,
slanted characters in the middle of the text look awkward and out of
place. Leaving the characters in the upright position by default and
allowing the user to italicize when required sounds more logical to me.
Having said that, perhaps, the defaults in formula editor can be changed
to reflect the LaTeX way.

Vamsi.


> Solution 3)
> - All Greek characters should be straight since that is what the
> unmodified charcters in the font look like.



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Re: [users] [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Daniel Rentz
In reply to this post by Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg
Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg schrieb:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to ask about a decision that needs to be made for upcoming OOo
> 3.3 which features the new and fixed OpenSymbol font (see issue 105084).
>   http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=105084

I vote for option 3 (unslanted) and for adding "%i***" symbols for
slanted characters.


Daniel

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Re: [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Regina Henschel
In reply to this post by Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg
Hi Thomas,

Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg schrieb:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to ask about a decision that needs to be made for upcoming OOo
> 3.3 which features the new and fixed OpenSymbol font (see issue 105084).
>    http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=105084
[..]
> Solution 3)
> - All Greek characters should be straight since that is what the
> unmodified charcters in the font look like.

I vote for solution 3.

For easier writing I like the idea of additional definitions %ixxx for
the italic variants.

kind regards
Regina

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Re: [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg
In reply to this post by Irné Barnard
Hi Irné,

> I'd like to add a further option 5:
> 5a)    If one of 1 or 3 is chosen, a macro should be created which would
> "translate" any Greek letter to be prefixed with the italic modifier.
> This so the user can quickly change the appearance if (and only if) they
> do want the old 3.2 look. If option 4a is chosen, it could be changed to
> this new 'i##' code instead of the modifier.
>
> 5b)    If option 2 is chosen, the reverse of above should then be
> implemented. So the user can "quickly" change to 'nitalic' if they don't
> want the old look, but rather the more standardised format. This should
> have 2 versions: One where both upper & lower case is "straightened",
> the other where onlu upper case is "straightened".
>
> 5c)    Introduce both 5a & 5b irrespective of 1, 2 & 3.

A simple macro won't do since to do it correctly that macro would be
required to implement a parser for Math in order to find out if a
specific char should be italic or not. This is because of the 'italic'
and 'nitalic' modifiers that could stand about anywhere in the formula
and still effect on a character.

Thus a programmatic solution is required, and even a macro would at
least require some new programmatic support in order to work.
We will think about this a bit more...


Thomas



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Re: [users] [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Thomas Lange - Oracle
In reply to this post by Thomas Lange - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg

Hi all,

It seems that most people prefer the Greek symbols to be straight by
default, and to add en extra symbols set where the symbol names get
prefixed with 'i' and are slanted.

I have submitted issue
    http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=113276
for this.

About quickly switching between italic and non-italic default for the
Greek symbols (a prerequisite if there should be a macro to change all
formulas in a Writer document):
For this I have submitted issue
    http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=113277

Unfortunately QA told me that even the simple and no UI change requiring
first issue is unlikely to get accepted as a show stopper, and thus I
have currently set the target for both issues to OOo 3.4. :-(

But feel free to argue with product managers on the releases ML about
this. ^_-


Regards,
Thomas



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Re: [users] [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Stephan Bergmann
On 07/20/10 14:04, Thomas Lange - Oracle wrote:
> It seems that most people prefer the Greek symbols to be straight by
> default, and to add en extra symbols set where the symbol names get
> prefixed with 'i' and are slanted.

Just a thought:  Is it technically correct to refer to those letter
faces as "italic" (and thus using "i" as prefix), or would "oblique" or
"slanted" be better?  (My understanding is that italic faces have
different glyph shapes than their -- typically roman -- counterparts,
whereas oblique/slanted faces are the roman glyphs just, well, slanted.)

-Stephan

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Re: [users] [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Herbert Duerr-2
On Jul 20, 2010, at 2:26 PM, Stephan Bergmann wrote:
> On 07/20/10 14:04, Thomas Lange - Oracle wrote:
>> It seems that most people prefer the Greek symbols to be straight by
>> default, and to add en extra symbols set where the symbol names get
>> prefixed with 'i' and are slanted.
>
> Just a thought:  Is it technically correct to refer to those letter  
> faces as "italic" (and thus using "i" as prefix), or would "oblique"  
> or "slanted" be better?

That's a question of "implementation vs. interface": The interface is  
to ask for italic and the most common implementation is to fallback to  
oblique if italic is not available.

> (My understanding is that italic faces have different glyph shapes  
> than their -- typically roman -- counterparts, whereas oblique/
> slanted faces are the roman glyphs just, well, slanted.)

Yes.

--
Herbert

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Re: [users] [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Thomas Lange - Oracle

Hi,

> On Jul 20, 2010, at 2:26 PM, Stephan Bergmann wrote:
> > On 07/20/10 14:04, Thomas Lange - Oracle wrote:
> >> It seems that most people prefer the Greek symbols to be straight by
> >> default, and to add en extra symbols set where the symbol names get
> >> prefixed with 'i' and are slanted.
> >
> > Just a thought:  Is it technically correct to refer to those letter  
> > faces as "italic" (and thus using "i" as prefix), or would "oblique"  
> > or "slanted" be better?
>
> That's a question of "implementation vs. interface": The interface is  
> to ask for italic and the most common implementation is to fallback to  
> oblique if italic is not available.
>
> > (My understanding is that italic faces have different glyph shapes  
> > than their -- typically roman -- counterparts, whereas oblique/
> > slanted faces are the roman glyphs just, well, slanted.)
>
> Yes.
>  


I that is the detail level you like to talk about:
Programmatically the only values from the FontItalic enum that Math
makes use of are
    ITALIC_NORMAL and ITALIC_NONE
Thus the keyword 'italic' in a formula text corresponds to ITALIC_NORMAL
and 'nitalic' to ITALIC_NONE.

Everything else depends on vcl.

Since (per default) *all* of the Greek symbols now from the OpenSymbol
font, is there actually a difference between ITALIC_OBLIQUE and
ITALIC_NORMAL when using OpenSymbol?
Are you suggesting to use ITALIC_OBLIQUE instead of ITALIC_NORMAL?


Thomas



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Re: [users] [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Herbert Duerr-2
Hi again,

>>>> It seems that most people prefer the Greek symbols to be straight  
>>>> by
>>>> default, and to add en extra symbols set where the symbol names get
>>>> prefixed with 'i' and are slanted.
>>>
>>> Just a thought:  Is it technically correct to refer to those letter
>>> faces as "italic" (and thus using "i" as prefix), or would "oblique"
>>> or "slanted" be better?
>>
>> That's a question of "implementation vs. interface": The interface is
>> to ask for italic and the most common implementation is to fallback  
>> to
>> oblique if italic is not available.
> [...]
>
> Since (per default) *all* of the Greek symbols now from the OpenSymbol
> font, is there actually a difference between ITALIC_OBLIQUE and
> ITALIC_NORMAL when using OpenSymbol?
> Are you suggesting to use ITALIC_OBLIQUE instead of ITALIC_NORMAL?

No. Asking for is ITALIC_NORMAL fine. If there is no OpenSymbol-Italic  
it gets emulated with oblique.

If too many people were unhappy with the emulated oblique style we  
could create an OpenSymbol-Italic font face. If we did that we  
shouldn't have to constrain the glyph shapes too much: If there was a  
need for such a style of OpenSymbol the reason was that look of the  
oblique version glyphs were not good enough in the first place.

--
Herbert

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Re: [users] [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Irné Barnard
  Agreed. The Italic_Normal and Italic_Oblique seems to be a larger and
more encompassing issue. Which we might look into at a later stage (if
such complaint happens). For me I've never had a problem with using
Oblique as is ... but that's just me.

--
Regards Irné Barnard

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Re: [users] [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Stephan Bergmann
In reply to this post by Herbert Duerr-2
On 07/20/10 15:03, Herbert Duerr wrote:

> On Jul 20, 2010, at 2:26 PM, Stephan Bergmann wrote:
>> On 07/20/10 14:04, Thomas Lange - Oracle wrote:
>>> It seems that most people prefer the Greek symbols to be straight by
>>> default, and to add en extra symbols set where the symbol names get
>>> prefixed with 'i' and are slanted.
>>
>> Just a thought: Is it technically correct to refer to those letter
>> faces as "italic" (and thus using "i" as prefix), or would "oblique"
>> or "slanted" be better?
>
> That's a question of "implementation vs. interface": The interface is to
> ask for italic and the most common implementation is to fallback to
> oblique if italic is not available.

And my question was whether you really "ask for italic."  Maybe my use
of the term "technically correct" was unfortunate; so, rephrased, my
question is:  In the jargon of professional typesetting, if you set the
mathematical formula "sin α," do you refer to the alpha as "italic" or
as "slanted" (or "oblique")?

The Chicago Manual of Style appears to be no help answering that
question, and The TeXbook says "It's conventional to use unslanted
letters for uppercase Greek, and slanted letters for lowercase Greek
[...]" but "There's also \mit, which stands for 'math italic.' This
affects uppercase Greek [...]", so appears to be somewhat undecided.

When reading the OP, the term "Greek italic" suddenly struck me as odd,
a combination of words that, at least when taken at face value (no pun
intended), do not fit together.  That got me thinking, and that's all.

-Stephan

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Re: [users] [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Thomas Lange - Oracle

Hi Stephan,


> On 07/20/10 15:03, Herbert Duerr wrote:
>> On Jul 20, 2010, at 2:26 PM, Stephan Bergmann wrote:
>>> On 07/20/10 14:04, Thomas Lange - Oracle wrote:
>>>> It seems that most people prefer the Greek symbols to be straight by
>>>> default, and to add en extra symbols set where the symbol names get
>>>> prefixed with 'i' and are slanted.
>>>
>>> Just a thought: Is it technically correct to refer to those letter
>>> faces as "italic" (and thus using "i" as prefix), or would "oblique"
>>> or "slanted" be better?
>>
>> That's a question of "implementation vs. interface": The interface is to
>> ask for italic and the most common implementation is to fallback to
>> oblique if italic is not available.
>
> And my question was whether you really "ask for italic."  Maybe my use
> of the term "technically correct" was unfortunate; so, rephrased, my
> question is:  In the jargon of professional typesetting, if you set the
> mathematical formula "sin α," do you refer to the alpha as "italic" or
> as "slanted" (or "oblique")?
>
> The Chicago Manual of Style appears to be no help answering that
> question, and The TeXbook says "It's conventional to use unslanted
> letters for uppercase Greek, and slanted letters for lowercase Greek
> [...]" but "There's also \mit, which stands for 'math italic.' This
> affects uppercase Greek [...]", so appears to be somewhat undecided.


Yup it is as you say.
Unfortunately SO implemented it wrong from the start ages ago.

However I already put the question to vote and the majority wanted all
the Greek letter in straight form by default AND to additionally have
the slanted characters available by prefixing the 'regular' ones with 'i'.
I also believe that this approach should allow for the best ease of use
experience. Thus %i... will be our version of \mit. ^_-


> When reading the OP, the term "Greek italic" suddenly struck me as odd,
> a combination of words that, at least when taken at face value (no pun
> intended), do not fit together.  That got me thinking, and that's all.


Thomas


BTW: good news, issue 113276 got accepted as show-stopper.



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Re: [users] [Q] Math: handling of Greek symbols in OOo 3.3 ?

Stephan Bergmann
On 07/21/10 10:37, Thomas Lange - Oracle wrote:

>> On 07/20/10 15:03, Herbert Duerr wrote:
>>> On Jul 20, 2010, at 2:26 PM, Stephan Bergmann wrote:
>>>> On 07/20/10 14:04, Thomas Lange - Oracle wrote:
>>>>> It seems that most people prefer the Greek symbols to be straight by
>>>>> default, and to add en extra symbols set where the symbol names get
>>>>> prefixed with 'i' and are slanted.
>>>>
>>>> Just a thought: Is it technically correct to refer to those letter
>>>> faces as "italic" (and thus using "i" as prefix), or would "oblique"
>>>> or "slanted" be better?
>>>
>>> That's a question of "implementation vs. interface": The interface is to
>>> ask for italic and the most common implementation is to fallback to
>>> oblique if italic is not available.
>>
>> And my question was whether you really "ask for italic."  Maybe my use
>> of the term "technically correct" was unfortunate; so, rephrased, my
>> question is:  In the jargon of professional typesetting, if you set the
>> mathematical formula "sin α," do you refer to the alpha as "italic" or
>> as "slanted" (or "oblique")?
>>
>> The Chicago Manual of Style appears to be no help answering that
>> question, and The TeXbook says "It's conventional to use unslanted
>> letters for uppercase Greek, and slanted letters for lowercase Greek
>> [...]" but "There's also \mit, which stands for 'math italic.' This
>> affects uppercase Greek [...]", so appears to be somewhat undecided.
>
>
> Yup it is as you say.
> Unfortunately SO implemented it wrong from the start ages ago.
>
> However I already put the question to vote and the majority wanted all
> the Greek letter in straight form by default AND to additionally have
> the slanted characters available by prefixing the 'regular' ones with 'i'.
> I also believe that this approach should allow for the best ease of use
> experience. Thus %i... will be our version of \mit. ^_-

Thomas, you still don't get me, I'm afraid.  I did not want to discuss
whether or not Greek letters should be slanted when used in formulas.  I
only wanted to discuss whether it is correct to call such slanted Greek
letters "italic" (and thus use that "i" prefix).

-Stephan

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Proposal for improved typeface and fontsize controls

Allan Jäke
In reply to this post by Thomas Lange - Oracle
Hello

I am new to OpenOffice-Usability so I don´t know if this topic has been
discussed earlier.


Proposal for improved typeface and fontsize controls

For screenshots and mock-up graphics see http://jaeke.de/usability/ooo.html


Currently 22" and full-HD 24" displays become standard for new
computers. Even most notebooks offer resolutions like 1440x900 or
1680x1050. It seems that most applications don´t use this space
adequately and neither does OpenOffice.

1. dropdown-controls

Issue: The current dropdown-lists of the fontsize and typeface just list
10 items each. This causes a lot of scrolling to find and select an
entry which is not shown. Especially in a long list of fonts it´s hard
to navigate. In case of the font-size there is another annoyance: the
smallest size listed is the current used. To select a smaller one,
scrolling is inevitable. This is unnecessary complex due to the fact
that there is lots of unused screen-estate left for these menus. With
the large prevailing display resolutions this is even more distressing.
(Figure 1 + 2)


1.1) I suggest to extend this menus to about 90% of the screen-height.
It is a very simple solution to reduce this annoyance: (Figure 3)

1.2) A more sophisticated way, I would prefer, are even larger dropdowns
with improved, more informative, content. The list of font-sizes should
display the numbers in the size of the resulting font-size. (Figure 4)

1.21) In figure 4 you can see little numbers in front of every paragraph
and header. These indicate the actual font-size which helps estimate the
desired font-size.

1.22) Optional: If the document is zoomed to 150% the list pick this up
and equally scale its entries. (It could cause problems with extreme
adjustments, where I have currently no consistent answer for.)

1.3) Even more informative and useful, imho, is my draft to improve the
typeface-box. There is lots of unused display-space, which could be used
to display as much fonts as possible in several columns. It is much
easier to remember where the desired font is located especially a very
long list of fonts. (Figure 5)

1.31) Some more features, I always missed, are added at the top, as
there are:

     1.31.a) Customizable sample-text. (Common sentences and two
individual texts, which come in handy for language specific special
characters.)
     1.31.b) A filter for font-families would be terrific, but hard to
implement. Fonts would have to be automatically recognized or manually
tagged.
     1.31.c) My favourite fonts is an automatically and manually (via
drag and drop) filled list. The current small list of constantly used
fonts does not work well and hardly fit my demands.

     1.31.d) There could be a link to download more fonts. Maybe at the
end of the font-list?
(An advanced version of this dialogue could display the online available
fonts directly so that the user can still utilize the familiar
filter-features.)


Note:

To both sides of the document there is so much unused screen-estate
(Figure 2). In contrast the document (especially in portrait format)
could use more vertical space, which is occupied by the buttonbar.

In a magazine I saw a draft design for a vertical tool/buttonbar. I
think this is a very good idea.










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Re: Proposal for improved typeface and fontsize controls

Niklas Nebel-2
Allan Jäke schrieb:

> 1. dropdown-controls
>
> Issue: The current dropdown-lists of the fontsize and typeface just list
> 10 items each. This causes a lot of scrolling to find and select an
> entry which is not shown. Especially in a long list of fonts it´s hard
> to navigate. In case of the font-size there is another annoyance: the
> smallest size listed is the current used. To select a smaller one,
> scrolling is inevitable. This is unnecessary complex due to the fact
> that there is lots of unused screen-estate left for these menus. With
> the large prevailing display resolutions this is even more distressing.
> (Figure 1 + 2)

For the records: As seen today at the Hackfest, the part about the
current font size always being at the top was already changed for 3.3,
see issue 2446.

Niklas

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