Prototype v0.16 feed-back

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Prototype v0.16 feed-back

michel RENON
Hi,

I've been completely silent since the end of the "design proposal",
but here is my feed-back about the prototype (0.16) !
Please read it in a constructive point view...

- First, I would like to say that this prototype is a very good work.
"Bravo" to the developers !

- the handles of objects are very good :
        - it's very easy to move/resize small object
        - rotating an object is soooo simple and easy ! (just add a tooltip  
with the angle value ?)
        - their color is subtle (not the awfull flashy green !)
        (they are a very good answer to one of my biggest complain against  
actual OOo)


- I found that handles of background's object are in a different  
color (light brown)
and these object can be edited without switching to "master".
This feature is very surprising, at the first time.
While reducing the number of mouse clicks, I think it's not very  
error proof for beginners (and others !...).
It should be reserved to advanced users, an activated via preferences.
For advanced users, it might be a good shortcut.

This possibility can be difficult or impossible when slide's object  
are bigger than background's objects :
how can the background's objects be selected ? In this case, will the  
user think to click the "M" button ?

However, I would suggest to add a visual effect to help differenciate  
background's objects from slides's objets.
For example, slide's objects could be dimmed or grayed (just a  
brainstormed idea, I'm absolutely not sure of efficiency...)


- the ZUI (Zooming User Interface) is very good !
specially for the transition "slide view" <--> "sorter view"
The "cheesy" button is perfect ! (totally abstract design, but  
finally very adapted)

- with the previous point, the "sorter" button (at the bottom) is not  
really necessary
Hmm, however, maybe some users need to see a button with label  
"Sorter view"...?


- the "X", "+" and "2" buttons are interesting !
the artwork/design should be improved, but it's not related to the  
prototype.
I think this idea could be extended to other objects.
(detailled in a future post)


- the "live effects" for all changes are very interesting and  
powerfull :
        - when you add an object, the preview in the left column is updated
        - when you modify the master, all previews are updated
        - when you "mouse hover" to select a color or a design, you have a  
live preview
        even in the prototype, performance is ok.


- the "M" button, for "master slide" :
the idea of a ZUI to toogle is good.
But in a more global point of view, i think that it's still too  
complicated
to manage "master slide", "layout" and you added "design" !
I had to do some tests to understand what "design" really means : for  
me it's the background of the master, isn't it ?

All this gave me ideas of another ZUI...
(detailled in a future post)

- 3D View
        Well, it's "coverflow for slides", but imho, it's not very usefull  
in design mode.
        This visual effect should be proposed for slideshow.


- toolbar v16 "fixed label variant 1" :
        the good points :
        - the place of tab's name is interesting

        - the small icons on the left ("new", "open", "save", "print" "pdf",  
"undo", "redo", "slideshow") are usefull

        - maybe it would be interesting to center all items ?


        the not so good points :

        - there are too much items/buttons/elements in each toolbar
        I think that's a reason why most people think it's an "MS Ribbon"
        And reducing button's size isn't a good answer to the problem.
        IMHO, the answer would be to reduce the number of items/buttons/
elements


        - the contents of toolbar are not very coherent :
        there is a mix of "actions" and "properties"
        one symptom is when you create/edit a shape : the current toolbar is  
changed by the "Format" toolbar : IMHO, it's very annoying
        I would suggest to put properties in another and completely  
independant place (maybe in the version 0.16 ?)
       
        But, some actions are so strongly associated to some properties that  
it might be difficult te separate them.
        For example, "add row" for a table : it seems obvious to see this  
button beside current cell properties.

        - the height sould be constant :
        when we change from "start" to "insert", there is a small change.
        The content must be adapted to the height of the toolbar.


        - IMHO, the "start" tab is more messy than usefull : too much of  
completely differents items
        And most items are duplicates of others : it's disturbing, because  
users might ask :
        "which button do i need to click ? the one in 'start' tab or in  
'format' tab ?"

        Please, look at toolbars of Apple software ! They are so smart !
        Yes, I'm a mac user..  ;-)

        IMHO, the current toolbar is a good start, but the content needs to  
be completely changed.





- toolbar v16, mixed buttons :
        - much much better !!!
        imho, almost all problems of "fixed label" version are gone !

        - having tabs inside the menu bar is surprising, but finally it's ok
        the problem will be for the Mac version : the menu bar is not in the  
window


        - there need to be a clear visual separation between the small icons  
on the left ("new", "open", "save"...)
        and the contextual zone



        About changing horizontal / vertical toolbars, you can see how  
android software manages
        differents screens orientations ?
        http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/ui/declaring-layout.html
        http://developer.android.com/guide/developing/tools/hierarchy- 
viewer.html
        http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/resources/available- 
resources.html#ninepatch
       
        the base object responsible of layout :
        http://developer.android.com/reference/android/view/ 
ViewGroup.LayoutParams.html

        this blog entry explains how apps handle the on-screen keyboards :
        http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2009/04/updating-applications- 
for-on-screen.html
        --> the UI is adapted (scrolled/resized/hidden...)



Based on this prototype, I have others ideas (zui, other buttons...)
that I will explain in a future post (I need time to prepare mockups  
and animations).



Thanks

Michel



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Re: Prototype v0.16 feed-back

Andreas Bartel
Hi Michel,

really great and constructive feedback! Very much appreciated! Looking
forward to hering more from you.

Thanks a lot!
Andreas

michel RENON schrieb:

> Hi,
>
> I've been completely silent since the end of the "design proposal",
> but here is my feed-back about the prototype (0.16) !
> Please read it in a constructive point view...
>
> - First, I would like to say that this prototype is a very good work.
> "Bravo" to the developers !
>
> - the handles of objects are very good :
>     - it's very easy to move/resize small object
>     - rotating an object is soooo simple and easy ! (just add a
> tooltip with the angle value ?)
>     - their color is subtle (not the awfull flashy green !)
>     (they are a very good answer to one of my biggest complain against
> actual OOo)
>
>
> - I found that handles of background's object are in a different color
> (light brown)
> and these object can be edited without switching to "master".
> This feature is very surprising, at the first time.
> While reducing the number of mouse clicks, I think it's not very error
> proof for beginners (and others !...).
> It should be reserved to advanced users, an activated via preferences.
> For advanced users, it might be a good shortcut.
>
> This possibility can be difficult or impossible when slide's object
> are bigger than background's objects :
> how can the background's objects be selected ? In this case, will the
> user think to click the "M" button ?
>
> However, I would suggest to add a visual effect to help differenciate
> background's objects from slides's objets.
> For example, slide's objects could be dimmed or grayed (just a
> brainstormed idea, I'm absolutely not sure of efficiency...)
>
>
> - the ZUI (Zooming User Interface) is very good !
> specially for the transition "slide view" <--> "sorter view"
> The "cheesy" button is perfect ! (totally abstract design, but finally
> very adapted)
>
> - with the previous point, the "sorter" button (at the bottom) is not
> really necessary
> Hmm, however, maybe some users need to see a button with label "Sorter
> view"...?
>
>
> - the "X", "+" and "2" buttons are interesting !
> the artwork/design should be improved, but it's not related to the
> prototype.
> I think this idea could be extended to other objects.
> (detailled in a future post)
>
>
> - the "live effects" for all changes are very interesting and powerfull :
>     - when you add an object, the preview in the left column is updated
>     - when you modify the master, all previews are updated
>     - when you "mouse hover" to select a color or a design, you have a
> live preview
>     even in the prototype, performance is ok.
>
>
> - the "M" button, for "master slide" :
> the idea of a ZUI to toogle is good.
> But in a more global point of view, i think that it's still too
> complicated
> to manage "master slide", "layout" and you added "design" !
> I had to do some tests to understand what "design" really means : for
> me it's the background of the master, isn't it ?
>
> All this gave me ideas of another ZUI...
> (detailled in a future post)
>
> - 3D View
>     Well, it's "coverflow for slides", but imho, it's not very usefull
> in design mode.
>     This visual effect should be proposed for slideshow.
>
>
> - toolbar v16 "fixed label variant 1" :
>     the good points :
>     - the place of tab's name is interesting
>
>     - the small icons on the left ("new", "open", "save", "print"
> "pdf", "undo", "redo", "slideshow") are usefull
>
>     - maybe it would be interesting to center all items ?
>
>
>     the not so good points :
>
>     - there are too much items/buttons/elements in each toolbar
>     I think that's a reason why most people think it's an "MS Ribbon"
>     And reducing button's size isn't a good answer to the problem.
>     IMHO, the answer would be to reduce the number of
> items/buttons/elements
>
>
>     - the contents of toolbar are not very coherent :
>     there is a mix of "actions" and "properties"
>     one symptom is when you create/edit a shape : the current toolbar
> is changed by the "Format" toolbar : IMHO, it's very annoying
>     I would suggest to put properties in another and completely
> independant place (maybe in the version 0.16 ?)
>    
>     But, some actions are so strongly associated to some properties
> that it might be difficult te separate them.
>     For example, "add row" for a table : it seems obvious to see this
> button beside current cell properties.
>
>     - the height sould be constant :
>     when we change from "start" to "insert", there is a small change.
>     The content must be adapted to the height of the toolbar.
>
>
>     - IMHO, the "start" tab is more messy than usefull : too much of
> completely differents items
>     And most items are duplicates of others : it's disturbing, because
> users might ask :
>     "which button do i need to click ? the one in 'start' tab or in
> 'format' tab ?"
>
>     Please, look at toolbars of Apple software ! They are so smart !
>     Yes, I'm a mac user..  ;-)
>
>     IMHO, the current toolbar is a good start, but the content needs
> to be completely changed.
>
>
>
>
>
> - toolbar v16, mixed buttons :
>     - much much better !!!
>     imho, almost all problems of "fixed label" version are gone !
>
>     - having tabs inside the menu bar is surprising, but finally it's ok
>     the problem will be for the Mac version : the menu bar is not in
> the window
>
>
>     - there need to be a clear visual separation between the small
> icons on the left ("new", "open", "save"...)
>     and the contextual zone
>
>
>
>     About changing horizontal / vertical toolbars, you can see how
> android software manages
>     differents screens orientations ?
>     http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/ui/declaring-layout.html
>     http://developer.android.com/guide/developing/tools/hierarchy-viewer.html 
>
>     http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/resources/available-resources.html#ninepatch 
>
>    
>     the base object responsible of layout :
>     http://developer.android.com/reference/android/view/ViewGroup.LayoutParams.html 
>
>
>     this blog entry explains how apps handle the on-screen keyboards :
>     http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2009/04/updating-applications-for-on-screen.html 
>
>     --> the UI is adapted (scrolled/resized/hidden...)
>
>
>
> Based on this prototype, I have others ideas (zui, other buttons...)
> that I will explain in a future post (I need time to prepare mockups
> and animations).
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Michel
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


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Re: Prototype v0.16 feed-back

Irné Barnard
I'm with you on that ... great suggestions. Is there any way we could
generate a running list of feedback and / or suggestions for the
prototype. Probably on the Wiki? A lot of things are duplicated time and
again in the mailing lists, but we do want new ideas. It just becomes
tedious to read through the same suggestion hundreds of times, and thus
something really good might be missed if each user gives their entire
list of ideas (even those which are already in the pipe-line :-D ).
Regards Irné Barnard

Andreas Bartel wrote:

> Hi Michel,
>
> really great and constructive feedback! Very much appreciated! Looking
> forward to hering more from you.
>
> Thanks a lot!
> Andreas
>
> michel RENON schrieb:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've been completely silent since the end of the "design proposal",
>> but here is my feed-back about the prototype (0.16) !
>> Please read it in a constructive point view...
>>
>> - First, I would like to say that this prototype is a very good work.
>> "Bravo" to the developers !
>>
>> - the handles of objects are very good :
>>     - it's very easy to move/resize small object
>>     - rotating an object is soooo simple and easy ! (just add a
>> tooltip with the angle value ?)
>>     - their color is subtle (not the awfull flashy green !)
>>     (they are a very good answer to one of my biggest complain
>> against actual OOo)
>>
>>
>> - I found that handles of background's object are in a different
>> color (light brown)
>> and these object can be edited without switching to "master".
>> This feature is very surprising, at the first time.
>> While reducing the number of mouse clicks, I think it's not very
>> error proof for beginners (and others !...).
>> It should be reserved to advanced users, an activated via preferences.
>> For advanced users, it might be a good shortcut.
>>
>> This possibility can be difficult or impossible when slide's object
>> are bigger than background's objects :
>> how can the background's objects be selected ? In this case, will the
>> user think to click the "M" button ?
>>
>> However, I would suggest to add a visual effect to help differenciate
>> background's objects from slides's objets.
>> For example, slide's objects could be dimmed or grayed (just a
>> brainstormed idea, I'm absolutely not sure of efficiency...)
>>
>>
>> - the ZUI (Zooming User Interface) is very good !
>> specially for the transition "slide view" <--> "sorter view"
>> The "cheesy" button is perfect ! (totally abstract design, but
>> finally very adapted)
>>
>> - with the previous point, the "sorter" button (at the bottom) is not
>> really necessary
>> Hmm, however, maybe some users need to see a button with label
>> "Sorter view"...?
>>
>>
>> - the "X", "+" and "2" buttons are interesting !
>> the artwork/design should be improved, but it's not related to the
>> prototype.
>> I think this idea could be extended to other objects.
>> (detailled in a future post)
>>
>>
>> - the "live effects" for all changes are very interesting and
>> powerfull :
>>     - when you add an object, the preview in the left column is updated
>>     - when you modify the master, all previews are updated
>>     - when you "mouse hover" to select a color or a design, you have
>> a live preview
>>     even in the prototype, performance is ok.
>>
>>
>> - the "M" button, for "master slide" :
>> the idea of a ZUI to toogle is good.
>> But in a more global point of view, i think that it's still too
>> complicated
>> to manage "master slide", "layout" and you added "design" !
>> I had to do some tests to understand what "design" really means : for
>> me it's the background of the master, isn't it ?
>>
>> All this gave me ideas of another ZUI...
>> (detailled in a future post)
>>
>> - 3D View
>>     Well, it's "coverflow for slides", but imho, it's not very
>> usefull in design mode.
>>     This visual effect should be proposed for slideshow.
>>
>>
>> - toolbar v16 "fixed label variant 1" :
>>     the good points :
>>     - the place of tab's name is interesting
>>
>>     - the small icons on the left ("new", "open", "save", "print"
>> "pdf", "undo", "redo", "slideshow") are usefull
>>
>>     - maybe it would be interesting to center all items ?
>>
>>
>>     the not so good points :
>>
>>     - there are too much items/buttons/elements in each toolbar
>>     I think that's a reason why most people think it's an "MS Ribbon"
>>     And reducing button's size isn't a good answer to the problem.
>>     IMHO, the answer would be to reduce the number of
>> items/buttons/elements
>>
>>
>>     - the contents of toolbar are not very coherent :
>>     there is a mix of "actions" and "properties"
>>     one symptom is when you create/edit a shape : the current toolbar
>> is changed by the "Format" toolbar : IMHO, it's very annoying
>>     I would suggest to put properties in another and completely
>> independant place (maybe in the version 0.16 ?)
>>         But, some actions are so strongly associated to some
>> properties that it might be difficult te separate them.
>>     For example, "add row" for a table : it seems obvious to see this
>> button beside current cell properties.
>>
>>     - the height sould be constant :
>>     when we change from "start" to "insert", there is a small change.
>>     The content must be adapted to the height of the toolbar.
>>
>>
>>     - IMHO, the "start" tab is more messy than usefull : too much of
>> completely differents items
>>     And most items are duplicates of others : it's disturbing,
>> because users might ask :
>>     "which button do i need to click ? the one in 'start' tab or in
>> 'format' tab ?"
>>
>>     Please, look at toolbars of Apple software ! They are so smart !
>>     Yes, I'm a mac user..  ;-)
>>
>>     IMHO, the current toolbar is a good start, but the content needs
>> to be completely changed.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> - toolbar v16, mixed buttons :
>>     - much much better !!!
>>     imho, almost all problems of "fixed label" version are gone !
>>
>>     - having tabs inside the menu bar is surprising, but finally it's ok
>>     the problem will be for the Mac version : the menu bar is not in
>> the window
>>
>>
>>     - there need to be a clear visual separation between the small
>> icons on the left ("new", "open", "save"...)
>>     and the contextual zone
>>
>>
>>
>>     About changing horizontal / vertical toolbars, you can see how
>> android software manages
>>     differents screens orientations ?
>>     http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/ui/declaring-layout.html
>>    
>> http://developer.android.com/guide/developing/tools/hierarchy-viewer.html 
>>
>>    
>> http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/resources/available-resources.html#ninepatch 
>>
>>         the base object responsible of layout :
>>    
>> http://developer.android.com/reference/android/view/ViewGroup.LayoutParams.html 
>>
>>
>>     this blog entry explains how apps handle the on-screen keyboards :
>>    
>> http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2009/04/updating-applications-for-on-screen.html 
>>
>>     --> the UI is adapted (scrolled/resized/hidden...)
>>
>>
>>
>> Based on this prototype, I have others ideas (zui, other buttons...)
>> that I will explain in a future post (I need time to prepare mockups
>> and animations).
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>
>
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>