OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
19 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Andreas Bartel-2
Hello fellow UX members,

Good News - The new OpenOffice.org document icons are subject to change!

Today, Rosana announced the official kick-off. Please read her blog post here:

http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/initializing_an_i_team_for

In short: The redesign will "operate" within given constraints that are described in the blog post. The goal is to significantly improve the usability of the icons. A new iTeam under my supervision will be set-up soon and we will start with some brainstrorming to which everyone will be invited to contribute. However, more details later this week.

Rosana has created a Wiki page where all further work will be documented and discussed. Here is the link:

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ODF_icons_i-team

Stay tuned!
Andreas
--


Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven

Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re:=?UTF-8?B?IFs=?=ux-discuss=?UTF-8?B?XSA=?=OpenOffice.org=?UTF-8?B?IA==?=Document=?UTF-8?B?IA==?=Icons=?UTF-8?B?IA==?=Redesign

Bernhard Dippold
Hi Andreas, all,

Andreas Bartel wrote:
> Hello fellow UX members,
>
> Good News - The new OpenOffice.org document icons are subject to change!

That's really good news - and you reintroduce colors.

But please read further...
>
> Today, Rosana announced the official kick-off. Please read her blog post
> here:
>
> http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/initializing_an_i_team_for
>
> In short: The redesign will "operate" within given constraints that are
> described in the blog post.

And this is the bad news:

The community is once more invited to comment on given preconditions
and constraints that don't reflect the input we made during the last year.

Why should we join an I-team, where we are not allowed to take part in
the principle decisions?

> The goal is to significantly improve the usability of the icons.

Your constraints already define the most important point as given:

Different sub-applications (Writer / Calc / Impress / Base / Draw) will not be
able to distinguish by color, as you define
CORE FUNCTION as "FORM plus gray, black and white"
and STATUS FUNCTION as "COLOR badges for [...] collaboration"

Defining a new focus of the icons ("Collaboration status is more important
than file type") without involving the community makes me sad:
It proves once more the impression, that Oracle defines their goals with
OpenOffice.org internally and the community is invited to follow the
given way and take part in the refinement of the modifications.

> A new iTeam under my supervision will be set-up
> soon and we will start with some brainstrorming to which everyone will
> be invited to contribute.

Even if a higher level of interest on the workflow in collaborative document
creation is an important point I really share, in my eyes it is less important
than the necessity to differenciate between the sub-applications by color.

I think the vast majority of users (even in future) will focus rather on their
own documents than on improvements on shared documents. If you got
different information within your UX reseaches, please share them.

My spare time is too short to invest a reasonable part of it in a topic where I
have to accept given preconditions I don't share and I can't influence.

Therefore I will not be able to take part in your new I-team.

I hope you can find community members agreeing to your preconditions, so
at least this part of collaborative community work will have success.

In the meantime I'll contribute to improvements to our office suite in
areas, where main directions and changes are discussed and decided in
a IMHO more open way.

As there has never been any comment on licensing the ODF icons different
from LGPL (as part of the software), I hope it is allowed to adapt them to the
ideas I repeatedly mentioned (being not compatible with your constraints)
and present them to the UX and Development Team of LibreOffice for
consideration.

If the icons are not licensed under LGPL, please inform me and all the other
people people sharing my misinterpretation.

Best regards

Bernhard




---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Andreas Bartel-2
Dear Bernhard,

thanks for your comments. A few important things I would like to add here.

The constraints that are mentioned in Rosana's blog post have the same status for all OepnOffice.org community members, inside and outside Oracle. Hence, these are the parameters I, as the iTeam lead, and everyone else who is willing to contribute will have to accept and deal with. This is the current situation. Yes, this is going to be a challenge. However, I have accepted this challenge and will do my very best to assure that we as a team deliver what is necessary. If we should determine that significant improvement of the icons with respect to their usability is out of our abilities, given the constraints, then so be it. In sum, I won't hesitate to clearly communicate what ever the outcome will be, regardless of any premature opinions and forecasts. However, for now I am confident that there is enough room left for improvement.

I perfectly understand the demand for color-coded icons. However, as mentioned above, this is not going to be an option for now. We rather will concentrate on the requirement behind this demand. To me, the requirement is obvious. The icons have to allow the users to clearly distinguish among the different document types. Period. Color-coding is one possible solution to support this task. The goal of our attempt will be to achieve similar effects without color-coding. This might be done with luminance contrasts, surface structure, form etc.

It is also important to understand and accept that the goal of the iTeam is not to lead endless discussions about if we like the constraints or not. We have a clear job assignment. We also won't do design by committee. Neither will anything be decided by voting. There is a nice saying about design by committee "A camel is a horse designed by committee" :-). The point is that the attempt to please everyone will inevitably lead to poor design decisions based on opinions of many instead of the expertise of a few. However, listening to and taking into account what others have to say will be vital for what is to come since we need fresh ideas and want to improve iteratively.

Overall, I am just looking forward to start working as soon as possible and see how far we can push the limits of our collective design skills to meet the expectations.

Regards,
Andreas

PS: I have started to collect links and resources to interesting, inspiring and delightful icons designs that might help us. Everyone is invited to do the same. If you have something, just post it to the wiki or drop me a mail to do so.


Am 17.11.2010 um 12:44 schrieb Dr. Bernhard Dippold:

> Hi Andreas, all,
>
> Andreas Bartel wrote:
>> Hello fellow UX members,
>>
>> Good News - The new OpenOffice.org document icons are subject to change!
>
> That's really good news - and you reintroduce colors.
>
> But please read further...
>>
>> Today, Rosana announced the official kick-off. Please read her blog post
>> here:
>>
>> http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/initializing_an_i_team_for
>>
>> In short: The redesign will "operate" within given constraints that are
>> described in the blog post.
>
> And this is the bad news:
>
> The community is once more invited to comment on given preconditions
> and constraints that don't reflect the input we made during the last year.
>
> Why should we join an I-team, where we are not allowed to take part in
> the principle decisions?
>
>> The goal is to significantly improve the usability of the icons.
>
> Your constraints already define the most important point as given:
>
> Different sub-applications (Writer / Calc / Impress / Base / Draw) will not be
> able to distinguish by color, as you define
> CORE FUNCTION as "FORM plus gray, black and white"
> and STATUS FUNCTION as "COLOR badges for [...] collaboration"
>
> Defining a new focus of the icons ("Collaboration status is more important
> than file type") without involving the community makes me sad:
> It proves once more the impression, that Oracle defines their goals with
> OpenOffice.org internally and the community is invited to follow the
> given way and take part in the refinement of the modifications.
>
>> A new iTeam under my supervision will be set-up
>> soon and we will start with some brainstrorming to which everyone will
>> be invited to contribute.
>
> Even if a higher level of interest on the workflow in collaborative document
> creation is an important point I really share, in my eyes it is less important
> than the necessity to differenciate between the sub-applications by color.
>
> I think the vast majority of users (even in future) will focus rather on their
> own documents than on improvements on shared documents. If you got
> different information within your UX reseaches, please share them.
>
> My spare time is too short to invest a reasonable part of it in a topic where I
> have to accept given preconditions I don't share and I can't influence.
>
> Therefore I will not be able to take part in your new I-team.
>
> I hope you can find community members agreeing to your preconditions, so
> at least this part of collaborative community work will have success.
>
> In the meantime I'll contribute to improvements to our office suite in
> areas, where main directions and changes are discussed and decided in
> a IMHO more open way.
>
> As there has never been any comment on licensing the ODF icons different
> from LGPL (as part of the software), I hope it is allowed to adapt them to the
> ideas I repeatedly mentioned (being not compatible with your constraints)
> and present them to the UX and Development Team of LibreOffice for
> consideration.
>
> If the icons are not licensed under LGPL, please inform me and all the other
> people people sharing my misinterpretation.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven



Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment





---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Éric Savary-2
In reply to this post by Andreas Bartel-2
Hi Andreas!

Andreas Bartel wrote:
> Hello fellow UX members,
>
> Good News - The new OpenOffice.org document icons are subject to change!
>
> Today, Rosana announced the official kick-off. Please read her blog
> post here:
>
> http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/initializing_an_i_team_for
>
To the "collaboration badges": for accessibility reasons we should
improve the readableness of those badges by using different *shapes*
depending on the function.

Case: take a color blind person like me ( ;) ) who mixes exactly the
orange and the green of 2 of those badges. Now reduce the size of the
icon to the average size (16x16?) used in a file manager in detail view:
quiet impossible to differentiate those badges.

Solution: give a different shape (square, triangle, ellipse...?) to each
badge.

Thanx for your work!
Éric

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Andreas Bartel-2
Hi Éric,

all good points. We will have to keep that in mind.

Thanks,
Andreas

Am 17.11.2010 um 16:32 schrieb Éric Savary:

> Hi Andreas!
>
> Andreas Bartel wrote:
>> Hello fellow UX members,
>>
>> Good News - The new OpenOffice.org document icons are subject to change!
>>
>> Today, Rosana announced the official kick-off. Please read her blog post here:
>>
>> http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/initializing_an_i_team_for
>>
> To the "collaboration badges": for accessibility reasons we should improve the readableness of those badges by using different *shapes* depending on the function.
>
> Case: take a color blind person like me ( ;) ) who mixes exactly the orange and the green of 2 of those badges. Now reduce the size of the icon to the average size (16x16?) used in a file manager in detail view: quiet impossible to differentiate those badges.
>
> Solution: give a different shape (square, triangle, ellipse...?) to each badge.
>
> Thanx for your work!
> Éric
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven



Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment





---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Larry Gusaas
In reply to this post by Andreas Bartel-2
On 2010/11/17 6:31 AM  Andreas Bartel wrote:
> I perfectly understand the demand for color-coded icons. However, as mentioned above, this is not going to be an option for now.

In other words, the opinion of the community is worthless. The icon design is going to be the
on that Oracle imposes on us despite the desires of the community. So much for OOo being a
community project. So much for it being a true open source project. Why not change its name to
ClosedOffice.org ?

Long live LibreOffice.



--
_____________________________________________________________________________


      Larry I. Gusaas

*Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese *



---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Graham Lauder
In reply to this post by Andreas Bartel-2
On Thursday 18 Nov 2010 01:31:07 Andreas Bartel wrote:
> Dear Bernhard,
>
> thanks for your comments. A few important things I would like to add here.
>
> The constraints that are mentioned in Rosana's blog post have the same
> status for all OepnOffice.org community members, inside and outside
> Oracle.

These were imposed obviously however by Oracle?  Yes?  Not the CC for instance

> Hence, these are the parameters I, as the iTeam lead, and everyone
> else who is willing to contribute will have to accept and deal with. This
> is the current situation. Yes, this is going to be a challenge. However, I
> have accepted this challenge and will do my very best to assure that we as
> a team deliver what is necessary. If we should determine that significant
> improvement of the icons with respect to their usability is out of our
> abilities, given the constraints, then so be it. In sum, I won't hesitate
> to clearly communicate what ever the outcome will be, regardless of any
> premature opinions and forecasts. However, for now I am confident that
> there is enough room left for improvement.

Personally I like monochrome icons, more distinctive for those of us who are
colour blind.  However are they distinctive enough  

>
> I perfectly understand the demand for color-coded icons. However, as
> mentioned above, this is not going to be an option for now. We rather will
> concentrate on the requirement behind this demand. To me, the requirement
> is obvious. The icons have to allow the users to clearly distinguish among
> the different document types. Period. Color-coding is one possible
> solution to support this task. The goal of our attempt will be to achieve
> similar effects without color-coding. This might be done with luminance
> contrasts, surface structure, form etc.

OK I'm cool with that so far

>
> It is also important to understand and accept that the goal of the iTeam is
> not to lead endless discussions about if we like the constraints or not.
> We have a clear job assignment. We also won't do design by committee.
> Neither will anything be decided by voting. There is a nice saying about
> design by committee "A camel is a horse designed by committee" :-).

Extremely bad comparison, it is a statement made by a horse person trying to
justify the very doubtful premise that a horse is better than a camel.  It
seems to me given all of the various parameters except perhaps aesthetics and
that is subjective, that a Camel is far better design than a horse and
therefore we should do design by committee.  :)  Personally I prefer decision
by consensus, rather than decision by decree because then the whole community
gets in behind.


> The
> point is that the attempt to please everyone will inevitably lead to poor
> design decisions based on opinions of many instead of the expertise of a
> few.

That is quite incorrect, design decisions based on the opinions of many is
what every corporate, and every branding company does on a daily basis.  It's
called market research.  Ignore the market at your peril, every marketing
person knows that.  If the "Experts" cannot by the power of persuasion,
provide compelling evidential argument to bring the community around to their
way of thinking then they shouldn't be holding themselves up as experts.
(That's called Sales ;) )  When the community sees expertise that they don't
agree with, it simply becomes expertise without substance, claimed expertise
and proven expertise are two different things, in a free community the latter
holds the most significance.  

> However, listening to and taking into account what others have to say
> will be vital for what is to come since we need fresh ideas and want to
> improve iteratively.

Listening is a great skill indeed, proving that you are listening to the
community is another deal altogether, lets make a commitment to make sure we
do that

>
> Overall, I am just looking forward to start working as soon as possible and
> see how far we can push the limits of our collective design skills to meet
> the expectations.
>
> Regards,
> Andreas
>
> PS: I have started to collect links and resources to interesting, inspiring
> and delightful icons designs that might help us. Everyone is invited to do
> the same. If you have something, just post it to the wiki or drop me a
> mail to do so.

Excellent, I look forward to seeing them

Cheers
GL


>
> Am 17.11.2010 um 12:44 schrieb Dr. Bernhard Dippold:
> > Hi Andreas, all,
> >
> > Andreas Bartel wrote:
> >> Hello fellow UX members,
> >>
> >> Good News - The new OpenOffice.org document icons are subject to change!
> >
> > That's really good news - and you reintroduce colors.
> >
> > But please read further...
> >
> >> Today, Rosana announced the official kick-off. Please read her blog post
> >> here:
> >>
> >> http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/initializing_an_i_team_for
> >>
> >> In short: The redesign will "operate" within given constraints that are
> >> described in the blog post.
> >
> > And this is the bad news:
> >
> > The community is once more invited to comment on given preconditions
> > and constraints that don't reflect the input we made during the last
> > year.
> >
> > Why should we join an I-team, where we are not allowed to take part in
> > the principle decisions?
> >
> >> The goal is to significantly improve the usability of the icons.
> >
> > Your constraints already define the most important point as given:
> >
> > Different sub-applications (Writer / Calc / Impress / Base / Draw) will
> > not be able to distinguish by color, as you define
> > CORE FUNCTION as "FORM plus gray, black and white"
> > and STATUS FUNCTION as "COLOR badges for [...] collaboration"
> >
> > Defining a new focus of the icons ("Collaboration status is more
> > important than file type") without involving the community makes me sad:
> > It proves once more the impression, that Oracle defines their goals with
> > OpenOffice.org internally and the community is invited to follow the
> > given way and take part in the refinement of the modifications.
> >
> >> A new iTeam under my supervision will be set-up
> >> soon and we will start with some brainstrorming to which everyone will
> >> be invited to contribute.
> >
> > Even if a higher level of interest on the workflow in collaborative
> > document creation is an important point I really share, in my eyes it is
> > less important than the necessity to differenciate between the
> > sub-applications by color.
> >
> > I think the vast majority of users (even in future) will focus rather on
> > their own documents than on improvements on shared documents. If you got
> > different information within your UX reseaches, please share them.
> >
> > My spare time is too short to invest a reasonable part of it in a topic
> > where I have to accept given preconditions I don't share and I can't
> > influence.
> >
> > Therefore I will not be able to take part in your new I-team.
> >
> > I hope you can find community members agreeing to your preconditions, so
> > at least this part of collaborative community work will have success.
> >
> > In the meantime I'll contribute to improvements to our office suite in
> > areas, where main directions and changes are discussed and decided in
> > a IMHO more open way.
> >
> > As there has never been any comment on licensing the ODF icons different
> > from LGPL (as part of the software), I hope it is allowed to adapt them
> > to the ideas I repeatedly mentioned (being not compatible with your
> > constraints) and present them to the UX and Development Team of
> > LibreOffice for consideration.
> >
> > If the icons are not licensed under LGPL, please inform me and all the
> > other people people sharing my misinterpretation.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Bernhard
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
> Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
> Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
> Oracle OFFICE GBU
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
>
> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
> Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven
>
>
>
> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect
> the environment
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.

INGOTs Assessor Trainer
(International Grades in Open Technologies)
www.theingots.org

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Andreas Bartel-2
Dear Graham,

I just noticed that you put yourself into the Wiki as the person in charge of UX and Marketing. As the iTeam lead I would appriciate that such decisions are discussed beforehand. Members of the iTeam have a clear job assignment and they should have the competence to make decisions. Thus, to become a member of this iTeam, you and everyone else need to have a proven track record of either good visual design work or a strong background in usability engineering. If you can provide that, I am fine. Otherwise I would kindly ask you to remove yourself from the iTeam, which, at least I hope, will not discourage you from providing feedback.

Best regards,

Andreas

Am 18.11.2010 04:14, schrieb Graham Lauder:
On Thursday 18 Nov 2010 01:31:07 Andreas Bartel wrote:
Dear Bernhard,

thanks for your comments. A few important things I would like to add here.

The constraints that are mentioned in Rosana's blog post have the same
status for all OepnOffice.org community members, inside and outside
Oracle. 
These were imposed obviously however by Oracle?  Yes?  Not the CC for instance

Hence, these are the parameters I, as the iTeam lead, and everyone
else who is willing to contribute will have to accept and deal with. This
is the current situation. Yes, this is going to be a challenge. However, I
have accepted this challenge and will do my very best to assure that we as
a team deliver what is necessary. If we should determine that significant
improvement of the icons with respect to their usability is out of our
abilities, given the constraints, then so be it. In sum, I won't hesitate
to clearly communicate what ever the outcome will be, regardless of any
premature opinions and forecasts. However, for now I am confident that
there is enough room left for improvement.
Personally I like monochrome icons, more distinctive for those of us who are 
colour blind.  However are they distinctive enough  

I perfectly understand the demand for color-coded icons. However, as
mentioned above, this is not going to be an option for now. We rather will
concentrate on the requirement behind this demand. To me, the requirement
is obvious. The icons have to allow the users to clearly distinguish among
the different document types. Period. Color-coding is one possible
solution to support this task. The goal of our attempt will be to achieve
similar effects without color-coding. This might be done with luminance
contrasts, surface structure, form etc.
OK I'm cool with that so far 

It is also important to understand and accept that the goal of the iTeam is
not to lead endless discussions about if we like the constraints or not.
We have a clear job assignment. We also won't do design by committee.
Neither will anything be decided by voting. There is a nice saying about
design by committee "A camel is a horse designed by committee" :-).
Extremely bad comparison, it is a statement made by a horse person trying to 
justify the very doubtful premise that a horse is better than a camel.  It 
seems to me given all of the various parameters except perhaps aesthetics and 
that is subjective, that a Camel is far better design than a horse and 
therefore we should do design by committee.  :)  Personally I prefer decision 
by consensus, rather than decision by decree because then the whole community 
gets in behind. 


The
point is that the attempt to please everyone will inevitably lead to poor
design decisions based on opinions of many instead of the expertise of a
few. 
That is quite incorrect, design decisions based on the opinions of many is 
what every corporate, and every branding company does on a daily basis.  It's 
called market research.  Ignore the market at your peril, every marketing 
person knows that.  If the "Experts" cannot by the power of persuasion, 
provide compelling evidential argument to bring the community around to their 
way of thinking then they shouldn't be holding themselves up as experts. 
(That's called Sales ;) )  When the community sees expertise that they don't 
agree with, it simply becomes expertise without substance, claimed expertise 
and proven expertise are two different things, in a free community the latter 
holds the most significance.  

However, listening to and taking into account what others have to say
will be vital for what is to come since we need fresh ideas and want to
improve iteratively.
Listening is a great skill indeed, proving that you are listening to the 
community is another deal altogether, lets make a commitment to make sure we 
do that

Overall, I am just looking forward to start working as soon as possible and
see how far we can push the limits of our collective design skills to meet
the expectations.

Regards,
Andreas

PS: I have started to collect links and resources to interesting, inspiring
and delightful icons designs that might help us. Everyone is invited to do
the same. If you have something, just post it to the wiki or drop me a
mail to do so.
Excellent, I look forward to seeing them

Cheers
GL 


Am 17.11.2010 um 12:44 schrieb Dr. Bernhard Dippold:
Hi Andreas, all,

Andreas Bartel wrote:
Hello fellow UX members,

Good News - The new OpenOffice.org document icons are subject to change!
That's really good news - and you reintroduce colors.

But please read further...

Today, Rosana announced the official kick-off. Please read her blog post
here:

http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/initializing_an_i_team_for

In short: The redesign will "operate" within given constraints that are
described in the blog post.
And this is the bad news:

The community is once more invited to comment on given preconditions
and constraints that don't reflect the input we made during the last
year.

Why should we join an I-team, where we are not allowed to take part in
the principle decisions?

The goal is to significantly improve the usability of the icons.
Your constraints already define the most important point as given:

Different sub-applications (Writer / Calc / Impress / Base / Draw) will
not be able to distinguish by color, as you define
CORE FUNCTION as "FORM plus gray, black and white"
and STATUS FUNCTION as "COLOR badges for [...] collaboration"

Defining a new focus of the icons ("Collaboration status is more
important than file type") without involving the community makes me sad:
It proves once more the impression, that Oracle defines their goals with
OpenOffice.org internally and the community is invited to follow the
given way and take part in the refinement of the modifications.

A new iTeam under my supervision will be set-up
soon and we will start with some brainstrorming to which everyone will
be invited to contribute.
Even if a higher level of interest on the workflow in collaborative
document creation is an important point I really share, in my eyes it is
less important than the necessity to differenciate between the
sub-applications by color.

I think the vast majority of users (even in future) will focus rather on
their own documents than on improvements on shared documents. If you got
different information within your UX reseaches, please share them.

My spare time is too short to invest a reasonable part of it in a topic
where I have to accept given preconditions I don't share and I can't
influence.

Therefore I will not be able to take part in your new I-team.

I hope you can find community members agreeing to your preconditions, so
at least this part of collaborative community work will have success.

In the meantime I'll contribute to improvements to our office suite in
areas, where main directions and changes are discussed and decided in
a IMHO more open way.

As there has never been any comment on licensing the ODF icons different
from LGPL (as part of the software), I hope it is allowed to adapt them
to the ideas I repeatedly mentioned (being not compatible with your
constraints) and present them to the UX and Development Team of
LibreOffice for consideration.

If the icons are not licensed under LGPL, please inform me and all the
other people people sharing my misinterpretation.

Best regards

Bernhard




---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven



Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect
the environment





---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

    

--


Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven

Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Peter Junge
Dear Andreas,

I can confirm, that Graham [1] is a long-term and merited contributer to
OOo as MarCon for New Zealand, to the design and content of our website
and to the content of our wiki. Beyond that, I do not understand his
iTeam role entry as "UX and Marketing" as self-declaration of
responsibilities, but more as a claim of interests. I assume you may
react oversensitive because someone was attempting to troll you a couple
of hours ago.

Best regards,
Peter

[1] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Yorick

Andreas Bartel wrote:

>   Dear Graham,
>
> I just noticed that you put yourself into the Wiki as the person in
> charge of UX and Marketing. As the iTeam lead I would appriciate that
> such decisions are discussed beforehand. Members of the iTeam have a
> clear job assignment and they should have the competence to make
> decisions. Thus, to become a member of this iTeam, you and everyone else
> need to have a proven track record of either good visual design work or
> a strong background in usability engineering. If you can provide that, I
> am fine. Otherwise I would kindly ask you to remove yourself from the
> iTeam, which, at least I hope, will not discourage you from providing
> feedback.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Andreas
>
> Am 18.11.2010 04:14, schrieb Graham Lauder:
>> On Thursday 18 Nov 2010 01:31:07 Andreas Bartel wrote:
>>> Dear Bernhard,
>>>
>>> thanks for your comments. A few important things I would like to add here.
>>>
>>> The constraints that are mentioned in Rosana's blog post have the same
>>> status for all OepnOffice.org community members, inside and outside
>>> Oracle.
>> These were imposed obviously however by Oracle?  Yes?  Not the CC for instance
>>
>>> Hence, these are the parameters I, as the iTeam lead, and everyone
>>> else who is willing to contribute will have to accept and deal with. This
>>> is the current situation. Yes, this is going to be a challenge. However, I
>>> have accepted this challenge and will do my very best to assure that we as
>>> a team deliver what is necessary. If we should determine that significant
>>> improvement of the icons with respect to their usability is out of our
>>> abilities, given the constraints, then so be it. In sum, I won't hesitate
>>> to clearly communicate what ever the outcome will be, regardless of any
>>> premature opinions and forecasts. However, for now I am confident that
>>> there is enough room left for improvement.
>> Personally I like monochrome icons, more distinctive for those of us who are
>> colour blind.  However are they distinctive enough  
>>
>>> I perfectly understand the demand for color-coded icons. However, as
>>> mentioned above, this is not going to be an option for now. We rather will
>>> concentrate on the requirement behind this demand. To me, the requirement
>>> is obvious. The icons have to allow the users to clearly distinguish among
>>> the different document types. Period. Color-coding is one possible
>>> solution to support this task. The goal of our attempt will be to achieve
>>> similar effects without color-coding. This might be done with luminance
>>> contrasts, surface structure, form etc.
>> OK I'm cool with that so far
>>
>>> It is also important to understand and accept that the goal of the iTeam is
>>> not to lead endless discussions about if we like the constraints or not.
>>> We have a clear job assignment. We also won't do design by committee.
>>> Neither will anything be decided by voting. There is a nice saying about
>>> design by committee "A camel is a horse designed by committee" :-).
>> Extremely bad comparison, it is a statement made by a horse person trying to
>> justify the very doubtful premise that a horse is better than a camel.  It
>> seems to me given all of the various parameters except perhaps aesthetics and
>> that is subjective, that a Camel is far better design than a horse and
>> therefore we should do design by committee.  :)  Personally I prefer decision
>> by consensus, rather than decision by decree because then the whole community
>> gets in behind.
>>
>>
>>> The
>>> point is that the attempt to please everyone will inevitably lead to poor
>>> design decisions based on opinions of many instead of the expertise of a
>>> few.
>> That is quite incorrect, design decisions based on the opinions of many is
>> what every corporate, and every branding company does on a daily basis.  It's
>> called market research.  Ignore the market at your peril, every marketing
>> person knows that.  If the "Experts" cannot by the power of persuasion,
>> provide compelling evidential argument to bring the community around to their
>> way of thinking then they shouldn't be holding themselves up as experts.
>> (That's called Sales ;) )  When the community sees expertise that they don't
>> agree with, it simply becomes expertise without substance, claimed expertise
>> and proven expertise are two different things, in a free community the latter
>> holds the most significance.  
>>
>>> However, listening to and taking into account what others have to say
>>> will be vital for what is to come since we need fresh ideas and want to
>>> improve iteratively.
>> Listening is a great skill indeed, proving that you are listening to the
>> community is another deal altogether, lets make a commitment to make sure we
>> do that
>>
>>> Overall, I am just looking forward to start working as soon as possible and
>>> see how far we can push the limits of our collective design skills to meet
>>> the expectations.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Andreas
>>>
>>> PS: I have started to collect links and resources to interesting, inspiring
>>> and delightful icons designs that might help us. Everyone is invited to do
>>> the same. If you have something, just post it to the wiki or drop me a
>>> mail to do so.
>> Excellent, I look forward to seeing them
>>
>> Cheers
>> GL
>>
>>
>>> Am 17.11.2010 um 12:44 schrieb Dr. Bernhard Dippold:
>>>> Hi Andreas, all,
>>>>
>>>> Andreas Bartel wrote:
>>>>> Hello fellow UX members,
>>>>>
>>>>> Good News - The new OpenOffice.org document icons are subject to change!
>>>> That's really good news - and you reintroduce colors.
>>>>
>>>> But please read further...
>>>>
>>>>> Today, Rosana announced the official kick-off. Please read her blog post
>>>>> here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/initializing_an_i_team_for
>>>>>
>>>>> In short: The redesign will "operate" within given constraints that are
>>>>> described in the blog post.
>>>> And this is the bad news:
>>>>
>>>> The community is once more invited to comment on given preconditions
>>>> and constraints that don't reflect the input we made during the last
>>>> year.
>>>>
>>>> Why should we join an I-team, where we are not allowed to take part in
>>>> the principle decisions?
>>>>
>>>>> The goal is to significantly improve the usability of the icons.
>>>> Your constraints already define the most important point as given:
>>>>
>>>> Different sub-applications (Writer / Calc / Impress / Base / Draw) will
>>>> not be able to distinguish by color, as you define
>>>> CORE FUNCTION as "FORM plus gray, black and white"
>>>> and STATUS FUNCTION as "COLOR badges for [...] collaboration"
>>>>
>>>> Defining a new focus of the icons ("Collaboration status is more
>>>> important than file type") without involving the community makes me sad:
>>>> It proves once more the impression, that Oracle defines their goals with
>>>> OpenOffice.org internally and the community is invited to follow the
>>>> given way and take part in the refinement of the modifications.
>>>>
>>>>> A new iTeam under my supervision will be set-up
>>>>> soon and we will start with some brainstrorming to which everyone will
>>>>> be invited to contribute.
>>>> Even if a higher level of interest on the workflow in collaborative
>>>> document creation is an important point I really share, in my eyes it is
>>>> less important than the necessity to differenciate between the
>>>> sub-applications by color.
>>>>
>>>> I think the vast majority of users (even in future) will focus rather on
>>>> their own documents than on improvements on shared documents. If you got
>>>> different information within your UX reseaches, please share them.
>>>>
>>>> My spare time is too short to invest a reasonable part of it in a topic
>>>> where I have to accept given preconditions I don't share and I can't
>>>> influence.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore I will not be able to take part in your new I-team.
>>>>
>>>> I hope you can find community members agreeing to your preconditions, so
>>>> at least this part of collaborative community work will have success.
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime I'll contribute to improvements to our office suite in
>>>> areas, where main directions and changes are discussed and decided in
>>>> a IMHO more open way.
>>>>
>>>> As there has never been any comment on licensing the ODF icons different
>>>> from LGPL (as part of the software), I hope it is allowed to adapt them
>>>> to the ideas I repeatedly mentioned (being not compatible with your
>>>> constraints) and present them to the UX and Development Team of
>>>> LibreOffice for consideration.
>>>>
>>>> If the icons are not licensed under LGPL, please inform me and all the
>>>> other people people sharing my misinterpretation.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>>
>>>> Bernhard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
>>> Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
>>> Oracle OFFICE GBU
>>>
>>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg
>>>
>>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
>>> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
>>> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
>>>
>>> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
>>> Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
>>> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
>>> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect
>>> the environment
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
> --
>
> <http://www.oracle.com/>
> Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
> Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
> Oracle OFFICE GBU
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
>
> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
> Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven
>
> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment>
>
>
>
> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help
> protect the environment
>
>
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Cor Nouws
In reply to this post by Andreas Bartel-2
Hi all,

Andreas Bartel wrote (16-11-10 18:51)

> Good News - The new OpenOffice.org document icons are subject to change!
>
> Today, Rosana announced the official kick-off. Please read her blog post
> here:
>
> http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/initializing_an_i_team_for

Clear reading. I appreciate that the constraints are clear right away -
anyway now.
Of course I am a bit biased about the work. I like the design of the
icons, but also recognise the call for colours.
(That obviously is something I'm going to miss at the Document
Foundation, where we there is no Big Bad Sponsor to blame for certain
decisions ;-) )

I hope that your work with the icons will be successful :-)

Regards,
Cor


--
  - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Andreas Bartel-2
In reply to this post by Peter Junge
Dear Peter & Graham

Peter, thanks for the hint! I might have overreacted with my statement. Graham, please don't take my words the wrong way. I am just to concerned about making the same organizational mistakes which have been made during the first attempt.

Best regards,
Andreas

Am 18.11.2010 15:30, schrieb Peter Junge:
Dear Andreas,

I can confirm, that Graham [1] is a long-term and merited contributer to OOo as MarCon for New Zealand, to the design and content of our website and to the content of our wiki. Beyond that, I do not understand his iTeam role entry as "UX and Marketing" as self-declaration of responsibilities, but more as a claim of interests. I assume you may react oversensitive because someone was attempting to troll you a couple of hours ago.

Best regards,
Peter

[1] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Yorick

Andreas Bartel wrote:
  Dear Graham,

I just noticed that you put yourself into the Wiki as the person in charge of UX and Marketing. As the iTeam lead I would appriciate that such decisions are discussed beforehand. Members of the iTeam have a clear job assignment and they should have the competence to make decisions. Thus, to become a member of this iTeam, you and everyone else need to have a proven track record of either good visual design work or a strong background in usability engineering. If you can provide that, I am fine. Otherwise I would kindly ask you to remove yourself from the iTeam, which, at least I hope, will not discourage you from providing feedback.

Best regards,

Andreas

Am 18.11.2010 04:14, schrieb Graham Lauder:
On Thursday 18 Nov 2010 01:31:07 Andreas Bartel wrote:
Dear Bernhard,

thanks for your comments. A few important things I would like to add here.

The constraints that are mentioned in Rosana's blog post have the same
status for all OepnOffice.org community members, inside and outside
Oracle.
These were imposed obviously however by Oracle?  Yes?  Not the CC for instance

Hence, these are the parameters I, as the iTeam lead, and everyone
else who is willing to contribute will have to accept and deal with. This
is the current situation. Yes, this is going to be a challenge. However, I
have accepted this challenge and will do my very best to assure that we as
a team deliver what is necessary. If we should determine that significant
improvement of the icons with respect to their usability is out of our
abilities, given the constraints, then so be it. In sum, I won't hesitate
to clearly communicate what ever the outcome will be, regardless of any
premature opinions and forecasts. However, for now I am confident that
there is enough room left for improvement.
Personally I like monochrome icons, more distinctive for those of us who are colour blind.  However are they distinctive enough 
I perfectly understand the demand for color-coded icons. However, as
mentioned above, this is not going to be an option for now. We rather will
concentrate on the requirement behind this demand. To me, the requirement
is obvious. The icons have to allow the users to clearly distinguish among
the different document types. Period. Color-coding is one possible
solution to support this task. The goal of our attempt will be to achieve
similar effects without color-coding. This might be done with luminance
contrasts, surface structure, form etc.
OK I'm cool with that so far
It is also important to understand and accept that the goal of the iTeam is
not to lead endless discussions about if we like the constraints or not.
We have a clear job assignment. We also won't do design by committee.
Neither will anything be decided by voting. There is a nice saying about
design by committee "A camel is a horse designed by committee" :-).
Extremely bad comparison, it is a statement made by a horse person trying to justify the very doubtful premise that a horse is better than a camel.  It seems to me given all of the various parameters except perhaps aesthetics and that is subjective, that a Camel is far better design than a horse and therefore we should do design by committee.  :)  Personally I prefer decision by consensus, rather than decision by decree because then the whole community gets in behind.

The
point is that the attempt to please everyone will inevitably lead to poor
design decisions based on opinions of many instead of the expertise of a
few.
That is quite incorrect, design decisions based on the opinions of many is what every corporate, and every branding company does on a daily basis.  It's called market research.  Ignore the market at your peril, every marketing person knows that.  If the "Experts" cannot by the power of persuasion, provide compelling evidential argument to bring the community around to their way of thinking then they shouldn't be holding themselves up as experts. (That's called Sales ;) )  When the community sees expertise that they don't agree with, it simply becomes expertise without substance, claimed expertise and proven expertise are two different things, in a free community the latter holds the most significance. 
However, listening to and taking into account what others have to say
will be vital for what is to come since we need fresh ideas and want to
improve iteratively.
Listening is a great skill indeed, proving that you are listening to the community is another deal altogether, lets make a commitment to make sure we do that

Overall, I am just looking forward to start working as soon as possible and
see how far we can push the limits of our collective design skills to meet
the expectations.

Regards,
Andreas

PS: I have started to collect links and resources to interesting, inspiring
and delightful icons designs that might help us. Everyone is invited to do
the same. If you have something, just post it to the wiki or drop me a
mail to do so.
Excellent, I look forward to seeing them

Cheers
GL

Am 17.11.2010 um 12:44 schrieb Dr. Bernhard Dippold:
Hi Andreas, all,

Andreas Bartel wrote:
Hello fellow UX members,

Good News - The new OpenOffice.org document icons are subject to change!
That's really good news - and you reintroduce colors.

But please read further...

Today, Rosana announced the official kick-off. Please read her blog post
here:

http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/initializing_an_i_team_for

In short: The redesign will "operate" within given constraints that are
described in the blog post.
And this is the bad news:

The community is once more invited to comment on given preconditions
and constraints that don't reflect the input we made during the last
year.

Why should we join an I-team, where we are not allowed to take part in
the principle decisions?

The goal is to significantly improve the usability of the icons.
Your constraints already define the most important point as given:

Different sub-applications (Writer / Calc / Impress / Base / Draw) will
not be able to distinguish by color, as you define
CORE FUNCTION as "FORM plus gray, black and white"
and STATUS FUNCTION as "COLOR badges for [...] collaboration"

Defining a new focus of the icons ("Collaboration status is more
important than file type") without involving the community makes me sad:
It proves once more the impression, that Oracle defines their goals with
OpenOffice.org internally and the community is invited to follow the
given way and take part in the refinement of the modifications.

A new iTeam under my supervision will be set-up
soon and we will start with some brainstrorming to which everyone will
be invited to contribute.
Even if a higher level of interest on the workflow in collaborative
document creation is an important point I really share, in my eyes it is
less important than the necessity to differenciate between the
sub-applications by color.

I think the vast majority of users (even in future) will focus rather on
their own documents than on improvements on shared documents. If you got
different information within your UX reseaches, please share them.

My spare time is too short to invest a reasonable part of it in a topic
where I have to accept given preconditions I don't share and I can't
influence.

Therefore I will not be able to take part in your new I-team.

I hope you can find community members agreeing to your preconditions, so
at least this part of collaborative community work will have success.

In the meantime I'll contribute to improvements to our office suite in
areas, where main directions and changes are discussed and decided in
a IMHO more open way.

As there has never been any comment on licensing the ODF icons different
from LGPL (as part of the software), I hope it is allowed to adapt them
to the ideas I repeatedly mentioned (being not compatible with your
constraints) and present them to the UX and Development Team of
LibreOffice for consideration.

If the icons are not licensed under LGPL, please inform me and all the
other people people sharing my misinterpretation.

Best regards

Bernhard




---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven



Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect
the environment





---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

-- 

<http://www.oracle.com/>
Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven

<http://www.oracle.com/commitment>

    

Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment




---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]


--


Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven

Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Andreas Bartel-2
In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
Hey Cor,

You got lost? ;-) Just kidding!

Am 18.11.2010 um 15:44 schrieb Cor Nouws:

> Hi all,
>
> Andreas Bartel wrote (16-11-10 18:51)
>
>> Good News - The new OpenOffice.org document icons are subject to change!
>>
>> Today, Rosana announced the official kick-off. Please read her blog post
>> here:
>>
>> http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/initializing_an_i_team_for
>
> Clear reading. I appreciate that the constraints are clear right away - anyway now.
> Of course I am a bit biased about the work. I like the design of the icons, but also recognise the call for colours.
> (That obviously is something I'm going to miss at the Document Foundation, where we there is no Big Bad Sponsor to blame for certain decisions ;-) )
>
> I hope that your work with the icons will be successful :-)

Yes, thanks a lot! I am pretty much confident since Christoph Noack is busy at TDF now ;-)))) I suppose he's still reading this list, so I take the chance to tease him :-)

>
> Regards,
> Cor

Best regards from Hamburg,
Andreas

>
>
> --
> - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven



Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment





---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Off-topic (was: Re: [ux-discuss] OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign)

Christoph Noack-4
Hi Andreas!

Am Donnerstag, den 18.11.2010, 23:07 +0100 schrieb Andreas Bartel:
> I suppose he's still reading this list, so I take the chance to tease
> him :-)

You may ;-)))

Cheers,
Christoph

PS: Reply after 7 minutes ... not bad, isn't it? :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Off-topic

Cor Nouws
Christoph Noack wrote (18-11-10 23:14)
>
> PS: Reply after 7 minutes ... not bad, isn't it? :-)

You broke all records - never new you were so much under influence of
Andreas :-p


--
  - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Off-topic (was: Re: [ux-discuss] OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign)

Andreas Bartel-2
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack-4
Wow, I am speechless! That was truly a quickie, even without a short story like you used to write ;-) You're getting old my friend.

Cheerio,
Andreas


Am 18.11.2010 um 23:14 schrieb Christoph Noack:

> Hi Andreas!
>
> Am Donnerstag, den 18.11.2010, 23:07 +0100 schrieb Andreas Bartel:
>> I suppose he's still reading this list, so I take the chance to tease
>> him :-)
>
> You may ;-)))
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
> PS: Reply after 7 minutes ... not bad, isn't it? :-)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven



Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment





---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Cor Nouws
In reply to this post by Andreas Bartel-2
Hi Andreas,

Andreas Bartel wrote (18-11-10 23:07)

> You got lost? ;-) Just kidding!

You'd better not know where I am at ;-)

> Yes, thanks a lot! I am pretty much confident since Christoph Noack is busy at TDF now ;-)))) I suppose he's still reading this list, so I take the chance to tease him :-)

I even thought about making some screenshots myself. But this system is
such an unbelievable mess wrt icons, sys integration (lack off) and all
kind of versions mixed - I am afraid those pictures will leave you in
complete confusion :-)
But I'll try it anyway.

Ciao,
Cor

--
  - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Andreas Bartel-2
oooh, your mess is perfectly fine! That's what we need since it reflects what you and others have to deal with.

So, thanks!
Andreas


Am 18.11.2010 um 23:20 schrieb Cor Nouws:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> Andreas Bartel wrote (18-11-10 23:07)
>
>> You got lost? ;-) Just kidding!
>
> You'd better not know where I am at ;-)
>
>> Yes, thanks a lot! I am pretty much confident since Christoph Noack is busy at TDF now ;-)))) I suppose he's still reading this list, so I take the chance to tease him :-)
>
> I even thought about making some screenshots myself. But this system is such an unbelievable mess wrt icons, sys integration (lack off) and all kind of versions mixed - I am afraid those pictures will leave you in complete confusion :-)
> But I'll try it anyway.
>
> Ciao,
> Cor
>
> --
> - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer
Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672
Oracle OFFICE GBU

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven



Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment





---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Graham Lauder
In reply to this post by Andreas Bartel-2
On Friday 19 November 2010 04:24:54 Andreas Bartel wrote:
> Dear Peter & Graham
>
> Peter, thanks for the hint! I might have overreacted with my statement.
> Graham, please don't take my words the wrong way. I am just to concerned
> about making the same organizational mistakes which have been made
> during the first attempt.
>
> Best regards,
> Andreas

There was no wrong way to take the statement,  there was no "Might" in
overreact.  The offer was made with the best interests of the project at heart
with no claim of responsibility of any sort, your response was unwarranted and
reflected little knowledge of the community.

Neither you nor Rosana put any restrictions on membership of this I-team in
either mail or blog, So this organisational error was yours.

Your obviously have difficulty with apologising.

Good Day


>
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

INGOTs Moderator New Zealand
www.theingots.org.nz


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OpenOffice.org Document Icons Redesign

Cor Nouws
In reply to this post by Andreas Bartel-2
hi Andreas,

Andreas Bartel wrote (18-11-10 23:24)
> oooh, your mess is perfectly fine! That's what we need since it
> reflects what you and others have to deal with.
>
> So, thanks!

OK, I'll put it on my list for next week.

Cor

> Am 18.11.2010 um 23:20 schrieb Cor Nouws:
>
>> I even thought about making some screenshots myself. But this
>> system is such an unbelievable mess wrt icons, sys integration
>> (lack off) and all kind of versions mixed - I am afraid those
>> pictures will leave you in complete confusion :-) But I'll try it
>> anyway.

--
  - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]