New on the wiki!

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New on the wiki!

Clément Pillias
Hello Dear List Members!

I have done a lot of work on the wiki, mainly to categorize and  
document wiki templates:

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:Wiki_Templates

I have also deeply reworked the "How to Join the User Experience  
team" page:

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Community/ 
How_To_Join

And finally, I have also created a page "How to contribute" that need  
to be filled, but I will talk about this in a future mail:

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/ 
How_To_Contribute

Enjoy! :)

Clément.
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Re: New on the wiki!

Frank Loehmann
Hi Clément,

good work! Cool to see how those page have been enhanced over time.

Thank you!

Frank

Clément Pillias wrote:

> Hello Dear List Members!
>
> I have done a lot of work on the wiki, mainly to categorize and
> document wiki templates:
>
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:Wiki_Templates
>
> I have also deeply reworked the "How to Join the User Experience team"
> page:
>
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Community/How_To_Join 
>
>
> And finally, I have also created a page "How to contribute" that need
> to be filled, but I will talk about this in a future mail:
>
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/How_To_Contribute 
>
>
> Enjoy! :)
>
> Clément.
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
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--
Sun Microsystems GmbH                Frank Loehmann
Nagelsweg 55                         User Experience StarOffice
20097 Hamburg                        Phone: (+49 40)23646 882
Germany                              Fax:   (+49 40)23646 550
http://www.sun.de                    mailto:[hidden email]

OpenOffice.org User Experience Team
http://ux.openoffice.org

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH,Sonnenallee 1,
D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten, Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Thomas Schröder, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering


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Re: New on the wiki!

Christoph Noack
Hi Clément, hi Frank,

sorry - although I see the amount of work which have gone into that -
where is the advantage? No, I have to disagree...

We are the UX team and so we are responsible for the initial impression
of our pages and to provide high-quality navigation. The reworked "How
to join" page appears cluttered to me ... hiding the important
information and let it just appear huge. The red and yellow stripes
remind me of manuals of highly hazardous machines. Is that the
impression we want to create for new contributors?

I'm not sure if I am the only one who has this impression, so please
compare the versions for yourself:
      * Original version:
        http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=User_Experience/Community/How_To_Join&oldid=99747
      * New version:
      * http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=User_Experience/Community/How_To_Join&oldid=109971


Same for the reworked template for UX. Example: Why is it necessary to
add all projects in our navigation bar? Isn't less more at this point?


Sorry for this strong opinion, but it seems that my impression of UX
work is something different... However, I very much like the approach of
How to Contribute!

Have a nice day!
Christoph



Am Freitag, den 30.01.2009, 15:56 +0100 schrieb Frank Loehmann:

> Hi Clément,
>
> good work! Cool to see how those page have been enhanced over time.
>
> Thank you!
>
> Frank
>
> Clément Pillias wrote:
> > Hello Dear List Members!
> >
> > I have done a lot of work on the wiki, mainly to categorize and
> > document wiki templates:
> >
> > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:Wiki_Templates
> >
> > I have also deeply reworked the "How to Join the User Experience team"
> > page:
> >
> > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Community/How_To_Join 
> >
> >
> > And finally, I have also created a page "How to contribute" that need
> > to be filled, but I will talk about this in a future mail:
> >
> > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/How_To_Contribute 
> >
> >
> > Enjoy! :)
> >
> > Clément.
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
>


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Re: New on the wiki!

Clément Pillias
Hi Christoph,

Le 30 janv. 09 à 18:10, Christoph Noack a écrit :

> sorry - although I see the amount of work which have gone into that  
> - where is the advantage? No, I have to disagree...

I understand your point and maybe we can have the best of both  
versions ;)

> We are the UX team and so we are responsible for the initial  
> impression of our pages and to provide high-quality navigation.

It was the goal.

> The reworked "How to join" page appears cluttered to me ... hiding  
> the important information and let it just appear huge. The red and  
> yellow stripes remind me of manuals of highly hazardous machines.

You should say that to the Documentation project, because I used  
their templates ;) I agree with you that it is not very nice, I plan  
to work on this.

Additionally, I am very unsatisfied by the wiki style sheet, and  
particularly with the h3 titles being bolder than h2. It really makes  
structured pages hard to read.

> Is that the impression we want to create for new contributors?
>
> I'm not sure if I am the only one who has this impression, so  
> please compare the versions for yourself:
>       * Original version:
>         http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?
> title=User_Experience/Community/How_To_Join&oldid=99747
>       * New version:
>       * http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?
> title=User_Experience/Community/How_To_Join&oldid=109971

One of the goal was to add a second hierarchical level, and to give  
more informations about why the steps are required. I thought that  
the old version was a big list of steps (6) with a lot of  
similarities (Register, Request, Register, Subscribe…). Not something  
very attractive, and the risk is that somebody miss a step (I did it:  
I skipped the step 4) is important. Registration should be so simple  
that it should only take one click.

Also, I have set my preferences so that titles get automatically  
numbered, so having "1 Step 1: …", "2 Step 2: …" is very annoying  
(yes, I know, I do not belong to the page audience.)

> Same for the reworked template for UX. Example: Why is it necessary  
> to add all projects in our navigation bar? Isn't less more at this  
> point?

I did this because I have seen that other projects (art?) did so, And  
I think it is a good idea to ease the navigation between projects.

My first intention was to make this part optional, but unfortunately,  
the wiki does not seems to support all of Wikipedia syntax for  
templates :(

> Sorry for this strong opinion, but it seems that my impression of  
> UX work is something different... However, I very much like the  
> approach of How to Contribute!

It's ok, I will try to make it cleaner.

Regards,

Clément.
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Re: New on the wiki!

Clément Pillias

Le 30 janv. 09 à 18:45, Clément Pillias a écrit :

>> Same for the reworked template for UX. Example: Why is it  
>> necessary to add all projects in our navigation bar? Isn't less  
>> more at this point?
>
> My first intention was to make this part optional, but  
> unfortunately, the wiki does not seems to support all of Wikipedia  
> syntax for templates :(

Ok, I have found a hack :) Now we can explicitly remove it (it is not  
perfect: ideally we should have asked for it if wanted).

Clément.
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Re: New on the wiki!

Clément Pillias
In reply to this post by Clément Pillias

Le 30 janv. 09 à 18:45, Clément Pillias a écrit :

> Le 30 janv. 09 à 18:10, Christoph Noack a écrit :
>
>> The reworked "How to join" page appears cluttered to me ... hiding  
>> the important information and let it just appear huge. The red and  
>> yellow stripes remind me of manuals of highly hazardous machines.
>
> You should say that to the Documentation project, because I used  
> their templates ;) I agree with you that it is not very nice, I  
> plan to work on this.

Done.

Is it better this way?

Clément.
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Re: New on the wiki!

Frank Loehmann
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Hi Christoph,

Christoph Noack schrieb:

> Hi Clément, hi Frank,
>
> sorry - although I see the amount of work which have gone into that -
> where is the advantage? No, I have to disagree...
>
> We are the UX team and so we are responsible for the initial impression
> of our pages and to provide high-quality navigation. The reworked "How
> to join" page appears cluttered to me ... hiding the important
> information and let it just appear huge. The red and yellow stripes
> remind me of manuals of highly hazardous machines. Is that the
> impression we want to create for new contributors?
>  
Personally I find the new page longer but better, because it emphasizes
the important. I agree that the new UX navigation for that page, listing
all OOO projects, is a little bit too much.

> I'm not sure if I am the only one who has this impression, so please
> compare the versions for yourself:
>       * Original version:
>         http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=User_Experience/Community/How_To_Join&oldid=99747
>       * New version:
>       * http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=User_Experience/Community/How_To_Join&oldid=109971
>
>
> Same for the reworked template for UX. Example: Why is it necessary to
> add all projects in our navigation bar? Isn't less more at this point?
>  
see above.
>
> Sorry for this strong opinion, but it seems that my impression of UX
> work is something different... However, I very much like the approach of
> How to Contribute!
>  
That is the main point. Nobody was hurt and changes have been announced.
:-)
> Have a nice day!
> Christoph
>
>  
Best regards,

Frank

>
> Am Freitag, den 30.01.2009, 15:56 +0100 schrieb Frank Loehmann:
>  
>> Hi Clément,
>>
>> good work! Cool to see how those page have been enhanced over time.
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> Clément Pillias wrote:
>>    
>>> Hello Dear List Members!
>>>
>>> I have done a lot of work on the wiki, mainly to categorize and
>>> document wiki templates:
>>>
>>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:Wiki_Templates
>>>
>>> I have also deeply reworked the "How to Join the User Experience team"
>>> page:
>>>
>>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Community/How_To_Join 
>>>
>>>
>>> And finally, I have also created a page "How to contribute" that need
>>> to be filled, but I will talk about this in a future mail:
>>>
>>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/How_To_Contribute 
>>>
>>>
>>> Enjoy! :)
>>>
>>> Clément.
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>      
>
>
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>  


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Re: New on the wiki! (And how to improve our web presence.)

Christoph Noack
In reply to this post by Clément Pillias
Hi Clément, hi Frank!

Am Freitag, den 30.01.2009, 18:45 +0100 schrieb Clément Pillias:
> Le 30 janv. 09 à 18:10, Christoph Noack a écrit :
> > sorry - although I see the amount of work which have gone into that  
> > - where is the advantage? No, I have to disagree...
>
> I understand your point and maybe we can have the best of both  
> versions ;)

Yep, that would be very cool, because I know that you are very concerned
about usability... Therefore I would like to explain some of my thoughts
when I re-worked the page some months ago.

But back to the current page: I looked at it once again and now it looks
much better. The only thing which seems a bit strict at the moment is
the request for "real names" being a warning (red). Why? Many people
might already have a user name which does not conform to this "rule",
and other people might never use their real names in the Internet.

>From my point of view using real names is important, but we should avoid
to enforce it. When people become active contributors, we could easily
ask them to - at least - provide their real names in mails.

So my proposal is to ask them in form of a 'tip' or 'note' - and maybe
only once. Then, the page would even look less colorful, even when we
use the original styles of the documentation project[1].

What do you think?

[1]
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Dashboard/Styles

By the way, I recently updated our 'email text' for new members [2]. One
of the past (and present?) problems was, that people just requested a
project membership without providing some information about them. So
this email is just a warm welcome and also includes some information how
they could 'finish' the registration. So it is required that these
process elements are somehow compatible.


[2]
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Project_Administration#Feedback_Email_to_New_Members

[...]
> > The reworked "How to join" page appears cluttered to me ... hiding  
> > the important information and let it just appear huge. The red and  
> > yellow stripes remind me of manuals of highly hazardous machines.
>
> You should say that to the Documentation project, because I used  
> their templates ;) I agree with you that it is not very nice, I plan  
> to work on this.

I think my reaction was triggered by seeing that there is more space
used for 'tips'/'cautions'/'information' than for the real text.
Additionally, I have a very wide monitor which makes it look really
really bad - this is very different to the style visible at [1] (in a
table).

> Additionally, I am very unsatisfied by the wiki style sheet, and  
> particularly with the h3 titles being bolder than h2. It really makes  
> structured pages hard to read.

That is something we might ask Ivan, he is (as far as I know) currently
very to improve the overall appearance of the Wiki. Maybe he can even
arrange something for the content area.

[...]
> One of the goal was to add a second hierarchical level, and to give  
> more informations about why the steps are required. I thought that  
> the old version was a big list of steps (6) with a lot of  
> similarities (Register, Request, Register, Subscribe…). Not something  
> very attractive, and the risk is that somebody miss a step (I did it:  
> I skipped the step 4) is important. Registration should be so simple  
> that it should only take one click.

One Click? ... I'm still dreaming about getting Single-Sign-On for all
our OOo related pages. A nice dream :-)

The second hierarchy is helpful - I agree. At the moment it just feels a
bit weird to have two separate steps below "First Step". Maybe we could
find something better, e.g. a simple First/Second/Last?

> Also, I have set my preferences so that titles get automatically  
> numbered, so having "1 Step 1: …", "2 Step 2: …" is very annoying  
> (yes, I know, I do not belong to the page audience.)

Indeed ;-)

> > Same for the reworked template for UX. Example: Why is it necessary  
> > to add all projects in our navigation bar? Isn't less more at this  
> > point?
>
> I did this because I have seen that other projects (art?) did so, And  
> I think it is a good idea to ease the navigation between projects.

Mmh, I don't think that this really adds benefit. Especially since there
are so many projects around: incubator projects, accepted projects, NL
projects, ... And we have the "related projects" section on our website.
So we are wrong in any case, and it requires very much space. (Nearly
all the pages on my system are now corrupted).

My proposal would be to use the side navigation for very essential
pages, which itself lead to others. Maybe it's time to discuss a
website/wiki strategy?


Although this is the topic "New on the wiki!", I would like to start a
discussion with you how our page could be structured. This is something
I have in mind for many months, but for the sake of sickness (still...)
it may not be complete. What I would like to hear is your opinion...

Although I'm a big friend of requirements (some of them are already
documented on my home PC), I will just skip them and provide the
proposed result.


=== Wiki ==============================================================

I would like to propose a general structure for the main page,
For...: Users, Developers, UX Team
      * Users: For general users just looking around - a showcase of
        things we did. Or how they may contribute - e.g. by using the
        brainstorming blog.
      * Developers: May refer to things like "why UX makes sense" or
        "how to get UX involved"
      * UX Team: This section may contain our project administration
        (decisions, communication) which do already exist. And it could
        contain things like literature, resources or best practices for
        the Wiki (see below).

New Content/Improvements:
      * An overall view on what we do and how we do it (Where do the
        problem requests come from, e.g. Issue Tracker or ux-request?
        What is the basis for our decisions, e.g. data from survey,
        experience, ...?)
      * Description of Tools like the Wiki and Software (e.g. what do we
        use when we want to archive xyz)
      * As already proposed: Best practices for working with the wiki...
      * Explanation of common myths about User Experience and Usability
        to better understand what we are and what not (some of them
        already collected)
      * More resources and literature --> e.g. merge the ones from the
        Renaissance page and the current UX page

According to the first topic "overall view", I would like to have
something which we could all use for reference: e.g. how we relate to
the specs project, what if there is no i-Team, ... And the others could
see where we add benefit in the development process.

=== Website ux.openoffice.org =========================================

This page is still required for administration, so we need some entry
point. What I would like to do is:
      * Remove some of the unnecessary links (e.g. Yahoo Pipes, CVS,
        Documents, ...)
      * Keep it just as a placeholder - only use the Wiki for developing
        content (so that everybody is able to participate)
      * The main reason for the page would be to contain a "Go to the
        Wiki, because we work there"-button.
      * Harmonize the Quick-Links with the ones in the wiki
      * Maybe we can add a nice logo-graphic which better serves the
        part "Experience"

=== Mailing Lists =====================================================

Concerning our mailing lists, I would like to improve their description
(as Graham pointed out in early December) and remove the unused ones
(dependent on what we decide for the Issue Tracker, maybe we will need
ux-issues in the future).


Oh dear, I'm a bit sad at the moment. These things are in my mind for
such a long time and there was so much to do all the time :-( So my hope
is that we could start a discussion (and wiki page?) which helps us to
re-do our presence in the web.

By the way, if you have any questions concerning the point above, please
don't hesitate to ask - maybe there is more in my mind than I was able
to write in this mail.

Clément, I'm looking forward to read your opinion. Maybe my today's post
didn't make clear how important your contributions are for the project!

Bye,
Christoh


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Re: New on the wiki!

Philip Ganchev
In reply to this post by Clément Pillias
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Clément Pillias
<[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> Done.
>
> Is it better this way?

Hi Clement

Yes, I think it's better than your first version. But I think that the
added structure may be harder to follow than the original simple
structure. I also prefer "Step 1" to "First step".

In all versions, I don't like the verbosity - it is an unnecessary
hurdle. For example, sentences like "Great! It seems that you have
gone through the steps successfully. So what are your options now?"
should be omitted. They try to sound friendly, but actually just waste
time. The friendly thing is to be concise and clear.

I also don't think contributors need to provide their real names. If
they want to be anonymous, I don't think it's impolite. The new HowTo
makes such a big deal out of it, that it sounds scary, let alone
verbose.

Of course, it would be much better if people could just register in
OOo instead of OOo and each project within OOo.

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Re: New on the wiki! (And how to improve our web presence.)

Philip Ganchev
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Christoph, I agree with everything you have proposed. I have thought
in that direction too.

I am not sure about the need for a "ux-issues" mailing list - we get
issues posted to rarely that it's not worth making the distinction. We
could just mention that people should write to the list if they have
UX issues in mind.

A serious point of confusion, I think, is the separation between a "UI
project" (Rennaissance) and a "UX project". I suspect, most people who
follow one of the two mailing lists also follow the other.  If there
is a difference between "work on user interfaces" and "work on user
experience", it is not clear from the wiki. The fact that I still am
not sure where the topic of (say) command search belongs means that
there is a problem of definition. The confusion will get worse if more
people start participating. Newcomers will ask themselves (as I did)
"Which list should I subscribe to?", "Which project should I join?".
This is bad user experience and will not make them enthusiastic about
contributing.

So one option is to make a waterproof definition that can be explained
in one sentence. You could say that the old mailing list is for small
changes (design of the sort range dialog), while Rennaisance is for
sweeping changes and dreaming a new paradigm for OOo UX. But even then
there is a question about where to draw the line between small and
sweeping changes.

The other option is to merge the two mailing lists. I prefer this.

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Re: New on the wiki!

Clément Pillias
In reply to this post by Philip Ganchev
Hi Philip, Christoph,

Le 31 janv. 09 à 07:23, Philip Ganchev a écrit :

> In all versions, I don't like the verbosity - it is an unnecessary
> hurdle. For example, sentences like "Great! It seems that you have
> gone through the steps successfully. So what are your options now?"  
> should be omitted. They try to sound friendly, but actually just  
> waste time. The friendly thing is to be concise and clear.

I agree, but I could not change every text ;)

> I also don't think contributors need to provide their real names.  
> If they want to be anonymous, I don't think it's impolite. The new  
> HowTo makes such a big deal out of it, that it sounds scary, let  
> alone verbose.

And Christoph wrote:

>> The only thing which seems a bit strict at the moment is the  
>> request for "real names" being a warning (red). Why? Many people  
>> might already have a user name which does not conform to this  
>> "rule", and other people might never use their real names in the  
>> Internet.
>>
>> From my point of view using real names is important, but we should  
>> avoid to enforce it. When people become active contributors, we  
>> could easily ask them to - at least - provide their real names in  
>> mails.

+1. I could not remove it alone, but I agree with both of you.

I will do some changes in the page in that direction.

Clément.
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Re: New on the wiki!

Clément Pillias

Le 31 janv. 09 à 12:19, Clément Pillias a écrit :

> Le 31 janv. 09 à 07:23, Philip Ganchev a écrit :
>
>> In all versions, I don't like the verbosity - it is an unnecessary  
>> hurdle. For example, sentences like "Great! It seems that you have  
>> gone through the steps successfully. So what are your options  
>> now?" should be omitted. They try to sound friendly, but actually  
>> just waste time. The friendly thing is to be concise and clear.
>
> I agree, but I could not change every text ;)

I have done a few changes in that direction.

>> [Real names…]
>
> I will do some changes in the page in that direction.

done. As usual: please comment ;)

Clément.
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Re: New on the wiki! (And how to improve our web presence.)

Clément Pillias
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Hi Christoph!

Le 30 janv. 09 à 23:31, Christoph Noack a écrit :

> By the way, I recently updated our 'email text' for new members  
> [2]. One of the past (and present?) problems was, that people just  
> requested a project membership without providing some information  
> about them. So this email is just a warm welcome and also includes  
> some information how they could 'finish' the registration. So it is  
> required that these process elements are somehow compatible.

I have added a comment in the page "How to join" about this.

>> Additionally, I am very unsatisfied by the wiki style sheet, and
>> particularly with the h3 titles being bolder than h2. It really  
>> makes structured pages hard to read.
>
> That is something we might ask Ivan, he is (as far as I know)  
> currently very to improve the overall appearance of the Wiki. Maybe  
> he can even arrange something for the content area.

Cool. I am of course willing to participate in the style sheet work.  
If Ivan has administrative rights to the wiki, it would also be cool  
if he could instal the extension "Parser Functions":

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ParserFunctions

So that we could use "if…" tests in wiki templates.

> [...]
>> One of the goal was to add a second hierarchical level, and to  
>> give  more informations about why the steps are required. I  
>> thought that the old version was a big list of steps (6) with a  
>> lot of similarities (Register, Request, Register, Subscribe…). Not  
>> something very attractive, and the risk is that somebody miss a  
>> step (I did it: I skipped the step 4) is important. Registration  
>> should be so simple that it should only take one click.
>
> One Click? ... I'm still dreaming about getting Single-Sign-On for  
> all our OOo related pages. A nice dream :-)

I was sure you would enjoy this idea ;)

> The second hierarchy is helpful - I agree. At the moment it just  
> feels a bit weird to have two separate steps below "First Step".  
> Maybe we could find something better, e.g. a simple First/Second/Last?

I have opted for a more literate form… Do you think it is right?

>>> Same for the reworked template for UX. Example: Why is it  
>>> necessary to add all projects in our navigation bar? Isn't less  
>>> more at this point?
>>
>> I did this because I have seen that other projects (art?) did so,  
>> And I think it is a good idea to ease the navigation between  
>> projects.
>
> Mmh, I don't think that this really adds benefit. Especially since  
> there are so many projects around: incubator projects, accepted  
> projects, NL projects, ... And we have the "related projects"  
> section on our website.
> So we are wrong in any case, and it requires very much space.  
> (Nearly all the pages on my system are now corrupted).

OK, it's easy to change ;)

Back to the style sheet, it is not a good idea to have text using all  
the width of the page (especially if you have a big screen). A better  
readability is achieved when the line width does not exceed 150 chars.

Limiting the text width would provide space on the right for this  
kind of navigation menus.

Also, I plan to rework all these horrible tables that don't fit in a  
normal screen, such as the one in the UX list of members.

> My proposal would be to use the side navigation for very essential
> pages, which itself lead to others. Maybe it's time to discuss a
> website/wiki strategy?

+1 But please note that a wiki is a tool that do not cope well with  
"big planned work" so the strategy should be directed toward small  
changes, incremental improvements…

> Although this is the topic "New on the wiki!", I would like to  
> start a discussion with you how our page could be structured. This  
> is something I have in mind for many months, but for the sake of  
> sickness (still...) it may not be complete. What I would like to  
> hear is your opinion...
>
> Although I'm a big friend of requirements (some of them are already  
> documented on my home PC), I will just skip them and provide the  
> proposed result.
>
> === Wiki ========================================================
>
> I would like to propose a general structure for the main page,
> For...: Users, Developers, UX Team

Although I agree with the proposed content below, I think it is  
better to categorize content according to the content, not the  
reader. Let the user decide what content (s)he is looking for.

Also, one strength of the wiki is the possibility to add links  
easily, so that we can focus on a page content rather than having to  
focus on where the page fits in the hierarchy. Then we can easily  
create pages listing other pages for special use.

>   * Users: For general users just looking around - a showcase of  
> things we did. Or how they may contribute - e.g. by using the  
> brainstorming blog.
>   * Developers: May refer to things like "why UX makes sense" or  
> "how to get UX involved"
>   * UX Team: This section may contain our project administration  
> (decisions, communication) which do already exist. And it could  
> contain things like literature, resources or best practices for the  
> Wiki (see below).

In my opinion, for the UX team, the wiki should be mainly a knowledge  
base. Developers have API documentation and sources, Users have user  
documentation, but UX team members still need some dedicated  
documentation.

> New Content/Improvements:
>   * An overall view on what we do and how we do it (Where do the  
> problem requests come from, e.g. Issue Tracker or ux-request? What  
> is the basis for our decisions, e.g. data from survey,  
> experience, ...?)
>   * Description of Tools like the Wiki and Software (e.g. what do  
> we use when we want to archive xyz)
>   * As already proposed: Best practices for working with the wiki...
>   * Explanation of common myths about User Experience and Usability  
> to better understand what we are and what not (some of them already  
> collected)
>   * More resources and literature --> e.g. merge the ones from the  
> Renaissance page and the current UX page
>
> According to the first topic "overall view", I would like to have
> something which we could all use for reference: e.g. how we relate  
> to the specs project, what if there is no i-Team, ... And the  
> others could see where we add benefit in the development process.
>
> === Website ux.openoffice.org ==================================
>
> This page is still required for administration, so we need some  
> entry point. What I would like to do is:
>   * Remove some of the unnecessary links (e.g. Yahoo Pipes, CVS,  
> Documents, ...)
>   * Keep it just as a placeholder - only use the Wiki for  
> developing content (so that everybody is able to participate)
>   * The main reason for the page would be to contain a "Go to the  
> Wiki, because we work there"-button.
>   * Harmonize the Quick-Links with the ones in the wiki
>   * Maybe we can add a nice logo-graphic which better serves the  
> part "Experience"

+1 to all the above concerning the ux.openoffice.org website.  
Concerning the logo, we should not have only one ;) But we could  
improve it. For example, I think that using a font such as Museo  
would be better, but it is another subject.

> === Mailing Lists ===============================================
>
> Concerning our mailing lists, I would like to improve their  
> description (as Graham pointed out in early December)

+1

> and remove the unused ones (dependent on what we decide for the  
> Issue Tracker, maybe we will need ux-issues in the future).

+1

Clément, a little bit overworked ;)
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Re: New on the wiki! (And how to improve our web presence.)

DrewJensen
In reply to this post by Philip Ganchev
Philip Ganchev wrote:
> So one option is to make a waterproof definition that can be explained
> in one sentence. You could say that the old mailing list is for small
> changes (design of the sort range dialog), while Rennaisance is for
> sweeping changes and dreaming a new paradigm for OOo UX. But even then
> there is a question about where to draw the line between small and
> sweeping changes.
>  

Hello,

Perhaps there is some value in looking at this not as a separation of UI
vs UX but rather P vs RD where P = Production and RD = Research and
Development.

Production work here is meant to be any work done for incorporation into
the current product line.

In this production context the UX representative may be the owner of a
task or issue being worked on but  they may also be only a contributing
member of a team and not the owner of the task or issue.  This might be
as simple as acting as a resource to a developer needing to understand
what differences exist between supported Operating Systems with regard
to UI guidelines. It may be help with specific wording on a menu or
rework of an existing dialog. These projects can be quite small then or
rather large but the key here is that they are happening in a working
development cycle and this does mean, and sorry if this offends anyone,
that they must be tied to some specific release target and that they can
be developed with available resources both human and technical.

Research and Development work on the other hand is summed up quite
nicely by Philip's words above - "is for sweeping changes and dreaming a
new paradigm ". It is in this context where I would place such projects
as the User Feedback, User Survey and Rennaisance. Here then the UX team
is totally in charge with regard to tasks and issues, assuming the team
decides to use such a work break down structure, folks from the other
disciplines within the OpenOffice.org community may very well be
resources on these tasks also. A reversal of roles from production in
other words. Still the specter of the dreaded calendar can not be dismissed.

It seems to me that separating the world view into these contexts there
is no need to cleave UI from UX, UI is just one component of any UX work
performed. Rather it is a case of recognizing and understanding the
different dynamics (decision drivers) at play when working on specific
projects, Tasks or Issues within each context.

Thanks,

Drew


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Re: New on the wiki!

Christoph Noack
In reply to this post by Clément Pillias
Hi everyone,

I just want to comment the verbosity and the current structure of the
welcome page - which I do not fully understand at the moment :-|

Am Samstag, den 31.01.2009, 13:26 +0100 schrieb Clément Pillias:

> Le 31 janv. 09 à 12:19, Clément Pillias a écrit :
> > Le 31 janv. 09 à 07:23, Philip Ganchev a écrit :
> >
> >> In all versions, I don't like the verbosity - it is an unnecessary  
> >> hurdle. For example, sentences like "Great! It seems that you have  
> >> gone through the steps successfully. So what are your options  
> >> now?" should be omitted. They try to sound friendly, but actually  
> >> just waste time. The friendly thing is to be concise and clear.
> >
> > I agree, but I could not change every text ;)
>
> I have done a few changes in that direction.

Philip, I added such text because some people do really want to be
guided - that was also the reason for adding an introduction where
people might find further information about UX.

Other people might simply skip this information, therefore I focused on
(visually) separating essential and additional information. Therefore
the old structure [1] has been:

        Step X: Title (bold)
        Short explanation what will be done at [link].
        Explanatory text for newcomers... (italic)
       
As a consequence, people who are familiar with OOo or OSS in general
could just read the titles and click on the links. Other people, e.g.
newcomers, who may require more information may read the italic
explanations. This structure is similar to our recent discussions how
dialogs work. And, due to the step numbers, I hoped that people can
easily see that there is more to come...

And now?

Each of the three main sections is structured differently, which makes
it really necessary to read all the text to interpret the information -
here I think we lost efficiency. Mmh, never criticize something if you
don't have an alternative :-) Wait a second...

Besides that, I noticed that the new content (headings) put a stronger
focus on the tooling instead of the members. For me, it makes a huge
difference if people read a) "Finally, Present Yourself ... On the
Mailing List" instead of b) "Step 6: Get in Contact". The first one
seems to put some burden on the new member, the second one puts emphasis
on the "together", the "team".

So how about that?
      * Start by Becoming a Formal Member
              * (no sub-head
      * Continue with Setting-Up Communication Tools
              *
      * Finally, Get in Touch with Us
              * Present Yourself in the Wiki
              * Say Hello On The Mailing List!

And for each main category:
      * I love to see a given structure like:
              * (optional) Sub-Heading (H2)
              * Short Statement(s) with [link]
              * Explanatory text incl. alternatives
              * (optional) Tip section
      * I would like to avoid re-started numberings (1., 2., ...)
      * Avoid the style 'information', because (from my point of view)
        all the informational text is equal on the page (otherwise we
        might need boxes for all of that text)
      * The content of the tip sections should be kept.

Your opinion?


What I still don't understand, why didn't we ask some of the newer
members how they managed to get through this how-to? I know many of them
did not present themselves here - maybe for very different reasons. It
should be relatively easy to get a list of them and to ask them some
questions to improve our procedures.

But and the end - it is still a simple wiki page we're discussing.
Although this page is some vCard for the project and it's work - we have
still two real requests on this list without any response from our side
(new Group for AutoCorrect options, Tab Colors in Calc).

Bye,
Christoph

[1]
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=User_Experience/Community/How_To_Join&oldid=99747


> >> [Real names…]
> >
> > I will do some changes in the page in that direction.
>
> done. As usual: please comment ;)

Yep, seems much friendlier to me :-)


Friendly greetings,
Christoph


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Re: New on the wiki! (And how to improve our web presence.)

Christoph Noack
In reply to this post by Philip Ganchev
Hi Philip!

Am Samstag, den 31.01.2009, 03:13 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
> Christoph, I agree with everything you have proposed. I have thought
> in that direction too.

Cool, mind injection seems to work ;-) Serious again, that is good to
hear. An overall strategy would hopefully make it possible to spread the
word ... aehm ... work.

> I am not sure about the need for a "ux-issues" mailing list - we get
> issues posted to rarely that it's not worth making the distinction. We
> could just mention that people should write to the list if they have
> UX issues in mind.

Some days before I proposed to get rid of it, but... It could be very
useful for being a "pseude-member" of UX related issues. Instead of
adding a new keyword, this could be a list to collect all the
information without being personally subscribed to such issues.

What do you all think? Frank, you might have the best overview to tell
us if this works for UX...

> A serious point of confusion, I think, is the separation between a "UI
> project" (Rennaissance) and a "UX project". I suspect, most people who
> follow one of the two mailing lists also follow the other.  If there
> is a difference between "work on user interfaces" and "work on user
> experience", it is not clear from the wiki. The fact that I still am
> not sure where the topic of (say) command search belongs means that
> there is a problem of definition. The confusion will get worse if more
> people start participating. Newcomers will ask themselves (as I did)
> "Which list should I subscribe to?", "Which project should I join?".
> This is bad user experience and will not make them enthusiastic about
> contributing.

Yep. It's easy for me to say that I had nothing to do with the naming,
but that wouldn't solve the problem, right? At the moment it still makes
sense to have two separate lists, because I'm the mail traffic will
increase in the next time and such a separation makes sense. Which
separation?

The ux-discuss is used for general talk and ideas - think of chatting
with other people in a bar or in a café. Talk about everything you want,
propose new ideas and discuss the project's infrastructure, methods, and
procedures.

The ux-ui was meant for changes which might really influence the
product. That means things which will really be in discussion for the
product like Renaissance. At the moment, data is still collected for
such kind of Renaissance discussion... but the name created so much
trouble that we really should think about renaming it - if this is
possible. Does anybody know if the list handler supports that?


By the way, I still have to thank Matthias Müller-Prove who changed the
initial (CollabNet) name from ux-dev to ux-discuss... That eased a lot!

> The other option is to merge the two mailing lists. I prefer this.

My proposal: let's improve the description if the remaining open points
(in this mail) are clear.

Bye,
Christoph

PS: I think it's time to set up a wiki page for "improving the ux
procedures and infrastructure". I will do that tomorrow (hopefully)...


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Re: New on the wiki! (And how to improve our web presence.)

Ivan M
Hi Clément,

On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 6:45 AM, Clément Pillias
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Additionally, I am very unsatisfied by the wiki style sheet, and
> particularly with the h3 titles being bolder than h2. It really makes
> structured pages hard to read.

Very unsatisfied? It sounds like you have a long list :)
Please send all comments/suggestions/complaints to
[hidden email] - alternatively, you could start a new
thread on this list, since I am currently the maintainer of the
OOoSkin stylesheet, and I'll announce it on website-dev.

Regards,
Ivan.

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Re: New on the wiki! (And how to improve our web presence.)

Ivan M
Whoops, I've restored my original display name now - I've been having
some Google account issues :(
Sorry about that!

On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Vladimir Miskovic
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Clément,
>
> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 6:45 AM, Clément Pillias
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Additionally, I am very unsatisfied by the wiki style sheet, and
>> particularly with the h3 titles being bolder than h2. It really makes
>> structured pages hard to read.
>
> Very unsatisfied? It sounds like you have a long list :)
> Please send all comments/suggestions/complaints to
> [hidden email] - alternatively, you could start a new
> thread on this list, since I am currently the maintainer of the
> OOoSkin stylesheet, and I'll announce it on website-dev.
>
> Regards,
> Ivan.
>

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Re: New on the wiki! (And how to improve our web presence.)

Graham Perrin
Administrator
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Christoph Noack wrote
The ux-discuss is used for general talk and ideas - think of chatting with other people in a bar or in a café. Talk about everything you want, propose new ideas and discuss the project's infrastructure, methods, and procedures.
My route to discuss@ux was this:

1. involvement with another open source project where discussion in the bug tracker was actively encouraged

— moreso than in the (Google) group forum

2. finding the alt-key conflicts/failures in OOo 3 for Mac OS X

3. discussion within Bugzilla (based upon past experience, this seemed natural and preferred)

4. direction from Bugzilla, to discuss@ux

At that point, I found the order of things at <http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Community/How_To_Join> surprising.

I had been simply: directed to a list, for discussion, mainly in relation to a single bug and its dependencies.

Was my route to chatting in a bar or café simple?

The next requirements were to:

5. formally join a team (about which I knew nothing)

6. register at a wiki (I don't like wikis)

7. subscribe to a mailing list (that is not designed for attachments).

Don't get me wrong — I now enjoy membership of this community, and issues are being addressed — but IMHO the desirably simple steps to discussion are unnecessarily convoluted.

I should not have to formally join a team, then register and edit a wiki, then subscribe to a mailing list, to simply discuss a bug.

Please, can we gently review the required order of things at 'How To Join'?

Thanks
Graham
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Re: New on the wiki! (And how to improve our web presence.)

Graham Perrin
Administrator
I forgot to add, the new wiki page does look much better than when I joined :)
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