Manually forwarded... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc]

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Manually forwarded... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc]

Christoph Noack
Hi everyone,

there was a demand on our mailing list ux-request which deals with
adding a colored background to the Calc worksheet tabs. Until now this
request seems to be unanswered, therefore I feel free to forward it to
ux-discuss. At the moment I'm a ill and don't feel too well, so is there
is anybody who might be able to respond to Daniel? Thanks in advance!

>From my point of view, he did very well when it comes to describe his
development - wiki page, written specification, competitor analysis, ...
(you will find further information in the forwarded mail below).

The original message in the mailing list is located at:
http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=request&msgNo=27

Thank you very much!
Christoph


-------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht --------

> Von: Daniel Watson <[hidden email]>
> Antwort an: [hidden email]
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc
> Datum: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:59:19 -0800
>
> I have started working on adding Tab Color support in OpenOffice.org's Calc.
> I was informed that I should get a hold of the UX team to make sure that my
> design fits with the design principals of OpenOffice.org. This work is in
> response to: Issue 5560, (
> http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5560 )
>
> <http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Danielbw#Calc:_Tab_Background_Color>Please
> visit my wiki at, (
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Danielbw#Calc:_Tab_Background_Color)
>  for all specifications.
>
> I have a couple videos linked on the wiki showing the functionality.  These
> videos are very early development and low quality, the color picker dialog
> will be like the cell background dialog when I am complete.  I plan on
> generating higher quality videos.
>
> If you are interested in examining my code changes, then please feel free to
> ask me for the current patch. I do not want to post a patch online until it
> is complete.
>
> I am also usually in IRC in the #dev.openoffice.org channel on freenode.
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Daniel Watson


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Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Christoph Noack
Hi Daniel,

I had a look on your specification - very good piece of work! Sometimes
I wished every feature enhancement could be well understood like that.
Personally the usual interest in code changes is quite low - as I am not
able to build OOo ;-)

My questions and comments are added in form of comments, I didn't change
your text. Please tell me if something sounds weird and can not be
understood. I'm sorry that it took so long, but I was sick for a few
days.

File (also linked on your wiki page):
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/images/4/43/2009-02-01_TabBgColor_specs_QuickUXReview.odt


To the other team members: If anybody owns "Excel 2002 / Excel XP", and
may spend 10 minutes to create a test file - this would be very valuable
for Daniel. Just have a look at his wiki page what to do. Thanks!
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Danielbw#Calc:_Tab_Background_Color


I would be glad if you come back and discuss with us the rest of the
development. Until then, I wish you luck for the file format integration
and the remaining issues!

Bye,
Christoph

Am Montag, den 26.01.2009, 22:33 +0100 schrieb Christoph Noack:

> Hi everyone,
>
> there was a demand on our mailing list ux-request which deals with
> adding a colored background to the Calc worksheet tabs. Until now this
> request seems to be unanswered, therefore I feel free to forward it to
> ux-discuss. At the moment I'm a ill and don't feel too well, so is there
> is anybody who might be able to respond to Daniel? Thanks in advance!
>
> >From my point of view, he did very well when it comes to describe his
> development - wiki page, written specification, competitor analysis, ...
> (you will find further information in the forwarded mail below).
>
> The original message in the mailing list is located at:
> http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=request&msgNo=27
>
> Thank you very much!
> Christoph
>
>
> -------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht --------
> > Von: Daniel Watson <[hidden email]>
> > Antwort an: [hidden email]
> > An: [hidden email]
> > Betreff: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc
> > Datum: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:59:19 -0800
> >
> > I have started working on adding Tab Color support in OpenOffice.org's Calc.
> > I was informed that I should get a hold of the UX team to make sure that my
> > design fits with the design principals of OpenOffice.org. This work is in
> > response to: Issue 5560, (
> > http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5560 )
> >
> > <http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Danielbw#Calc:_Tab_Background_Color>Please
> > visit my wiki at, (
> > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Danielbw#Calc:_Tab_Background_Color)
> >  for all specifications.
> >
> > I have a couple videos linked on the wiki showing the functionality.  These
> > videos are very early development and low quality, the color picker dialog
> > will be like the cell background dialog when I am complete.  I plan on
> > generating higher quality videos.
> >
> > If you are interested in examining my code changes, then please feel free to
> > ask me for the current patch. I do not want to post a patch online until it
> > is complete.
> >
> > I am also usually in IRC in the #dev.openoffice.org channel on freenode.
> >
> > Thanks for your time,
> > Daniel Watson

--
Usability * Productivity * Enjoyment

OpenOffice.org User Experience Team
http://ux.openoffice.org


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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Philip Ganchev
Hi Daniel

Nice work. I agree that the user never needs to use a fine color map
(the currently implemented dialog shown in Section 1.2.3.1), because
she only needs some colors to differentiate the tabs, and because
there usually relatively few sheets.

Here my suggestions [1]:

1. Arrange the colors more logically, for example as in the dialog in
Excel 2003. The palette on the left in the current dialog is even more
logically arranged, but it does not have shades of gray. Is that
important?

2. If possible, use a menu instead of a dialog, because dialogs pop up
away from the pointer and the user's locus of attention, require more
interaction to close, and take up more screen space.

3. There is no need for a status bar (and a menu can't contain one). I
don't think showing the color name is important; if it is, use tool
tips.

4. Include menu items to un-color all tabs and automatically color all
tabs with a hard-coded order of colors. The order should start with
colors that are easy to differentiate but not gaudy.

5. I included space for 15 recently used colors in the palette. Maybe
15 is too many.

6. I included a color picker to help the user choose a color from an
already colored tab, perhaps in anther spreadsheet document.

[1] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Image:Tab_color_menu_3.png

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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Christoph Noack
Hi Daniel, hi Philip,

Philip, thanks for commenting that. After sending my email yesterday, I
had also some more thoughts I want to share with Daniel.

Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 05:50 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
> Hi Daniel
>
> Nice work. I agree that the user never needs to use a fine color map
> (the currently implemented dialog shown in Section 1.2.3.1), because
> she only needs some colors to differentiate the tabs, and because
> there usually relatively few sheets.

That may be true, but in my opinion, Daniel did the right thing to base
his design on the dialogs which are already there - like the text color
or text background windows. So our users can just use their current
knowledge. And gets the color palette he or his company wants (in OOo
you can easily adapt the color palette for all modules).

I'm with you when it comes with the drawbacks you described for the
current color dialog, but it may be hard for Daniel to change that ;-)
So please keep that in mind if we once re-design our color dialogs. Or,
maybe (if you had already thought about) just design "the ideal" color
dialog which fits into OOo in general. Maybe this will be something for
Renaissance :-)

Daniel, after I've already sent my mail yesterday, I noticed that I
missed an important point. You talked about a modal dialog and I
provided some comments - but I should understand the intended
interaction first. So the user opens the dialog, choses a color and
then... will he somehow confirm that selection? What if (s)he doesn't
want to change the color after all, how to cancel that operation? So
maybe the whole dialog has to designed non-modal, or it has to be a real
dialog with added OK/Cancel.

Another point I was in doubt yesterday: Just keep the "No Tab Color"
instead of "No Fill". The first one makes more sense...

Bye,
Christoph


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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Clément Pillias

Le 2 févr. 09 à 22:39, Christoph Noack a écrit :

> Another point I was in doubt yesterday: Just keep the "No Tab Color"
> instead of "No Fill". The first one makes more sense...

But may cause translation issues :) In french: "Pas de couleur  
d'onglet". I think that "No Color" or "Default" is enough.

Clément.
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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Christoph Noack-3
Thanks Clément,

I think that is what André had in mind when he asked us for shorter
captions. Thanks for the reminder! :-)

Bye,
Christoph


Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 23:20 +0100 schrieb Clément Pillias:

> Le 2 févr. 09 à 22:39, Christoph Noack a écrit :
>
> > Another point I was in doubt yesterday: Just keep the "No Tab Color"
> > instead of "No Fill". The first one makes more sense...
>
> But may cause translation issues :) In french: "Pas de couleur  
> d'onglet". I think that "No Color" or "Default" is enough.
>
> Clément.
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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Philip Ganchev
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Christoph Noack
<[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 05:50 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
...

>> Nice work. I agree that the user never needs to use a fine color map
>> (the currently implemented dialog shown in Section 1.2.3.1), because
>> she only needs some colors to differentiate the tabs, and because
>> there usually relatively few sheets.
>
> That may be true, but in my opinion, Daniel did the right thing to base
> his design on the dialogs which are already there - like the text color
> or text background windows. So our users can just use their current
> knowledge. And gets the color palette he or his company wants (in OOo
> you can easily adapt the color palette for all modules).

I don't understand. Daniel initially implemented a big dialog [1], but
plans to replace it with a smaller dialog [2]. I agreeing with the
change and suggesting some further changes. Are you objecting to the
change?

[1] http://picasaweb.google.com/phil.ganchev/UI#5298333194639902338
[2] http://picasaweb.google.com/phil.ganchev/UI#5298333200793456850

> I'm with you when it comes with the drawbacks you described for the
> current color dialog, but it may be hard for Daniel to change that ;-)

I don't understand that either. If we have to use a standard dialog,
there is no room for our input. If we can change it, why not design it
well? What's more, I made 6 suggestions. Are they all impossible to
implement?

> So please keep that in mind if we once re-design our color dialogs. Or,
> maybe (if you had already thought about) just design "the ideal" color
> dialog which fits into OOo in general. Maybe this will be something for
> Renaissance :-)

In my previous email I designed the perfect color menu :-) for
purposes where color precision is not required.[3]  What do you think
about it?

[3] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Image:Tab_color_menu_3.png

> Daniel, after I've already sent my mail yesterday, I noticed that I
> missed an important point. You talked about a modal dialog and I
> provided some comments - but I should understand the intended
> interaction first. So the user opens the dialog, choses a color and
> then... will he somehow confirm that selection? What if (s)he doesn't
> want to change the color after all, how to cancel that operation? So
> maybe the whole dialog has to designed non-modal, or it has to be a real
> dialog with added OK/Cancel.
...

Either click the "x" button in the window title bar, or press Escape.
There is no need for OK and Cancel buttons - keep it small and
unobstructive.

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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Christoph Noack
Hi Philip,

just a short mail before I went to bed - it's already veeeery late...

Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 17:53 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:

> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Christoph Noack
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
> > Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 05:50 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
> ...
> >> Nice work. I agree that the user never needs to use a fine color map
> >> (the currently implemented dialog shown in Section 1.2.3.1), because
> >> she only needs some colors to differentiate the tabs, and because
> >> there usually relatively few sheets.
> >
> > That may be true, but in my opinion, Daniel did the right thing to base
> > his design on the dialogs which are already there - like the text color
> > or text background windows. So our users can just use their current
> > knowledge. And gets the color palette he or his company wants (in OOo
> > you can easily adapt the color palette for all modules).
>
> I don't understand. Daniel initially implemented a big dialog [1], but
> plans to replace it with a smaller dialog [2]. I agreeing with the
> change and suggesting some further changes. Are you objecting to the
> change?
>
> [1] http://picasaweb.google.com/phil.ganchev/UI#5298333194639902338
> [2] http://picasaweb.google.com/phil.ganchev/UI#5298333200793456850

The first dialog (in the specification document) containt 'sv' in it's
name - I think he used the one from the StarView framework, which is the
old basis for OpenOffice.org. Maybe it was just for testing purposes, so
I absolutely recommend the change to the second one. Because it mimics
the behavior of the today's ones...

> > I'm with you when it comes with the drawbacks you described for the
> > current color dialog, but it may be hard for Daniel to change that ;-)
>
> I don't understand that either. If we have to use a standard dialog,
> there is no room for our input. If we can change it, why not design it
> well? What's more, I made 6 suggestions. Are they all impossible to
> implement?

I don't know if they are impossible to implement. But I doubt if too
many changes improve the dialog, which is currently known to the user.
For example, the way OOo handles color palettes is not too bad, and does
somehow interfere with some of your proposals.

> > So please keep that in mind if we once re-design our color dialogs. Or,
> > maybe (if you had already thought about) just design "the ideal" color
> > dialog which fits into OOo in general. Maybe this will be something for
> > Renaissance :-)
>
> In my previous email I designed the perfect color menu :-) for
> purposes where color precision is not required.[3]  What do you think
> about it?
>
> [3] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Image:Tab_color_menu_3.png
>
> > Daniel, after I've already sent my mail yesterday, I noticed that I
> > missed an important point. You talked about a modal dialog and I
> > provided some comments - but I should understand the intended
> > interaction first. So the user opens the dialog, choses a color and
> > then... will he somehow confirm that selection? What if (s)he doesn't
> > want to change the color after all, how to cancel that operation? So
> > maybe the whole dialog has to designed non-modal, or it has to be a real
> > dialog with added OK/Cancel.
> ...
>
> Either click the "x" button in the window title bar, or press Escape.
> There is no need for OK and Cancel buttons - keep it small and
> unobstructive.

...but make it's behavior known to the user. At least for me, there are
some use cases where such interaction makes perfect sense, for a modal
dialog. But let's wait for Daniel's response.

Good night,
Christoph


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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Daniel Watson-3
In reply to this post by Philip Ganchev
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:50 AM, Philip Ganchev <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi Daniel
>
> Nice work. I agree that the user never needs to use a fine color map
> (the currently implemented dialog shown in Section 1.2.3.1), because
> she only needs some colors to differentiate the tabs, and because
> there usually relatively few sheets.
>
> Here my suggestions [1]:
>
> 1. Arrange the colors more logically, for example as in the dialog in
> Excel 2003. The palette on the left in the current dialog is even more
> logically arranged, but it does not have shades of gray. Is that
> important?


I want to use the existing controls and implement the Dialog so it's
consistent with the rest of Calc.   I am updating the documentation
and I will let you all know how it looks now.

>
>
> 2. If possible, use a menu instead of a dialog, because dialogs pop up
> away from the pointer and the user's locus of attention, require more
> interaction to close, and take up more screen space.


See above...

>
>
> 3. There is no need for a status bar (and a menu can't contain one). I
> don't think showing the color name is important; if it is, use tool
> tips.


Yes, I realize that, the SetLayout Control already has this.

>
>
> 4. Include menu items to un-color all tabs and automatically color all
> tabs with a hard-coded order of colors. The order should start with
> colors that are easy to differentiate but not gaudy.


I would only do this is if the user has a way of changing the automatic
colors.  This looks like an enhancement, but does not seem crucial to
the initial implementation.

>
>
> 5. I included space for 15 recently used colors in the palette. Maybe
> 15 is too many.


There are no other color pickers that include recently used colors. I
was trying not to go against the grain, but if the demand is great
enough, I could implement it.

>
>
> 6. I included a color picker to help the user choose a color from an
> already colored tab, perhaps in anther spreadsheet document.
>
> [1] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Image:Tab_color_menu_3.png
>

Nice, but I don't think this is the way I wanted this to go.  I want to use
the current controls to keep the user experience consistent.


--
Regards,
Daniel Watson
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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Daniel Watson-3
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Christoph, I am making some changes and updating the documentation, I will
let you all know when I am finished. Your comments are most appreciated.

On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Christoph Noack <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Daniel,
>
> I had a look on your specification - very good piece of work! Sometimes
> I wished every feature enhancement could be well understood like that.
> Personally the usual interest in code changes is quite low - as I am not
> able to build OOo ;-)
>
> My questions and comments are added in form of comments, I didn't change
> your text. Please tell me if something sounds weird and can not be
> understood. I'm sorry that it took so long, but I was sick for a few
> days.
>
> File (also linked on your wiki page):
>
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/images/4/43/2009-02-01_TabBgColor_specs_QuickUXReview.odt
>
>
> To the other team members: If anybody owns "Excel 2002 / Excel XP", and
> may spend 10 minutes to create a test file - this would be very valuable
> for Daniel. Just have a look at his wiki page what to do. Thanks!
>
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Danielbw#Calc:_Tab_Background_Color
>
>
> I would be glad if you come back and discuss with us the rest of the
> development. Until then, I wish you luck for the file format integration
> and the remaining issues!
>
> Bye,
> Christoph
>
> Am Montag, den 26.01.2009, 22:33 +0100 schrieb Christoph Noack:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > there was a demand on our mailing list ux-request which deals with
> > adding a colored background to the Calc worksheet tabs. Until now this
> > request seems to be unanswered, therefore I feel free to forward it to
> > ux-discuss. At the moment I'm a ill and don't feel too well, so is there
> > is anybody who might be able to respond to Daniel? Thanks in advance!
> >
> > >From my point of view, he did very well when it comes to describe his
> > development - wiki page, written specification, competitor analysis, ...
> > (you will find further information in the forwarded mail below).
> >
> > The original message in the mailing list is located at:
> > http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=request&msgNo=27
> >
> > Thank you very much!
> > Christoph
> >
> >
> > -------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht --------
> > > Von: Daniel Watson <[hidden email]>
> > > Antwort an: [hidden email]
> > > An: [hidden email]
> > > Betreff: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc
> > > Datum: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:59:19 -0800
> > >
> > > I have started working on adding Tab Color support in OpenOffice.org's
> Calc.
> > > I was informed that I should get a hold of the UX team to make sure
> that my
> > > design fits with the design principals of OpenOffice.org. This work is
> in
> > > response to: Issue 5560, (
> > > http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5560 )
> > >
> > > <
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Danielbw#Calc:_Tab_Background_Color
> >Please
> > > visit my wiki at, (
> > >
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Danielbw#Calc:_Tab_Background_Color
> )
> > >  for all specifications.
> > >
> > > I have a couple videos linked on the wiki showing the functionality.
>  These
> > > videos are very early development and low quality, the color picker
> dialog
> > > will be like the cell background dialog when I am complete.  I plan on
> > > generating higher quality videos.
> > >
> > > If you are interested in examining my code changes, then please feel
> free to
> > > ask me for the current patch. I do not want to post a patch online
> until it
> > > is complete.
> > >
> > > I am also usually in IRC in the #dev.openoffice.org channel on
> freenode.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your time,
> > > Daniel Watson
>
> --
> Usability * Productivity * Enjoyment
>
> OpenOffice.org User Experience Team
> http://ux.openoffice.org
>
>


--
Regards,
Daniel Watson
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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Daniel Watson-3
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Christoph Noack
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Philip,
>
> just a short mail before I went to bed - it's already veeeery late...
>
> Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 17:53 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
> > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Christoph Noack
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > ...
> > > Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 05:50 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
> > ...
> > >> Nice work. I agree that the user never needs to use a fine color map
> > >> (the currently implemented dialog shown in Section 1.2.3.1), because
> > >> she only needs some colors to differentiate the tabs, and because
> > >> there usually relatively few sheets.
> > >
> > > That may be true, but in my opinion, Daniel did the right thing to base
> > > his design on the dialogs which are already there - like the text color
> > > or text background windows. So our users can just use their current
> > > knowledge. And gets the color palette he or his company wants (in OOo
> > > you can easily adapt the color palette for all modules).
> >
> > I don't understand. Daniel initially implemented a big dialog [1], but
> > plans to replace it with a smaller dialog [2]. I agreeing with the
> > change and suggesting some further changes. Are you objecting to the
> > change?
> >
> > [1] http://picasaweb.google.com/phil.ganchev/UI#5298333194639902338
> > [2] http://picasaweb.google.com/phil.ganchev/UI#5298333200793456850
>
> The first dialog (in the specification document) containt 'sv' in it's
> name - I think he used the one from the StarView framework, which is the
> old basis for OpenOffice.org. Maybe it was just for testing purposes, so
> I absolutely recommend the change to the second one. Because it mimics
> the behavior of the today's ones...

Yes, exact;y the first dialog was a working dialog I could use to pick colors so
I could get the tab color changed and saved to a file.  I have completed that,
so now I am working on the dialog.

>
> > > I'm with you when it comes with the drawbacks you described for the
> > > current color dialog, but it may be hard for Daniel to change that ;-)
> >
> > I don't understand that either. If we have to use a standard dialog,
> > there is no room for our input. If we can change it, why not design it
> > well? What's more, I made 6 suggestions. Are they all impossible to
> > implement?
>
> I don't know if they are impossible to implement. But I doubt if too
> many changes improve the dialog, which is currently known to the user.
> For example, the way OOo handles color palettes is not too bad, and does
> somehow interfere with some of your proposals.

I can make a good color dialog, or keep it simple.  I'd like to implement the
more colors button that invokes that sv color picker showed in the original
screen shots, so the user can pick a custom color.  The color will be added
to the current palette, with a name of _Recent X_ where X is the
number of the custom color. i.e. the first one would be equal to _Recent 1_

>
> > > So please keep that in mind if we once re-design our color dialogs. Or,
> > > maybe (if you had already thought about) just design "the ideal" color
> > > dialog which fits into OOo in general. Maybe this will be something for
> > > Renaissance :-)
> >
> > In my previous email I designed the perfect color menu :-) for
> > purposes where color precision is not required.[3]  What do you think
> > about it?
> >
> > [3] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Image:Tab_color_menu_3.png
> >
> > > Daniel, after I've already sent my mail yesterday, I noticed that I
> > > missed an important point. You talked about a modal dialog and I
> > > provided some comments - but I should understand the intended
> > > interaction first. So the user opens the dialog, choses a color and
> > > then... will he somehow confirm that selection? What if (s)he doesn't
> > > want to change the color after all, how to cancel that operation? So
> > > maybe the whole dialog has to designed non-modal, or it has to be a real
> > > dialog with added OK/Cancel.
> > ...
> >
> > Either click the "x" button in the window title bar, or press Escape.
> > There is no need for OK and Cancel buttons - keep it small and
> > unobstructive.
>
> ...but make it's behavior known to the user. At least for me, there are
> some use cases where such interaction makes perfect sense, for a modal
> dialog. But let's wait for Daniel's response.

I want to make changing the tab color as quick as possible, so if the user
does not click on a color or the more button, the dialog closes with no
changes made.

>
> Good night,
> Christoph
>



--
Regards,
Daniel Watson

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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Daniel Watson-3
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
I can set it to "No Color" if that makes it easier for translation.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Clément Pillias
<[hidden email]>  wrote:

>
> Le 2 févr. 09 à 22:39, Christoph Noack a écrit :
>
>> Another point I was in doubt yesterday: Just keep the "No Tab Color"
>> instead of "No Fill". The first one makes more sense...
>
> But may cause translation issues :) In french: "Pas de couleur d'onglet". I think that "No Color" or "Default" is enough.
>
> Clément.
>

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Re: Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Sophie-2-2
Hi Daniel,
Daniel Watson wrote:
> I can set it to "No Color" if that makes it easier for translation.

I can't find your original message on the list, but yes "No Color" would
be better as you're already know it's about a Tab.
Or if you want to stay consistent with the "no filling" choices that are
already existing in the UI for Font Color, or Highlighting or Background
color, etc, you may choose "Automatic" which is not so far from
Clément's proposal with "Default".

Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Christoph Noack
In reply to this post by Daniel Watson-3
Hi Daniel!

Just a few words on the color dialogs...

Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 20:47 -0800 schrieb Daniel Watson:

> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Christoph Noack
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 17:53 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
> > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Christoph Noack
> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > ...
> > > > Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 05:50 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
> > > ...
> > > >> Nice work. I agree that the user never needs to use a fine color map
> > > >> (the currently implemented dialog shown in Section 1.2.3.1), because
> > > >> she only needs some colors to differentiate the tabs, and because
> > > >> there usually relatively few sheets.
> > > >
> > > > That may be true, but in my opinion, Daniel did the right thing to base
> > > > his design on the dialogs which are already there - like the text color
> > > > or text background windows. So our users can just use their current
> > > > knowledge. And gets the color palette he or his company wants (in OOo
> > > > you can easily adapt the color palette for all modules).
> > >
> > > I don't understand. Daniel initially implemented a big dialog [1], but
> > > plans to replace it with a smaller dialog [2]. I agreeing with the
> > > change and suggesting some further changes. Are you objecting to the
> > > change?
> > >
> > > [1] http://picasaweb.google.com/phil.ganchev/UI#5298333194639902338
> > > [2] http://picasaweb.google.com/phil.ganchev/UI#5298333200793456850
> >
> > The first dialog (in the specification document) containt 'sv' in it's
> > name - I think he used the one from the StarView framework, which is the
> > old basis for OpenOffice.org. Maybe it was just for testing purposes, so
> > I absolutely recommend the change to the second one. Because it mimics
> > the behavior of the today's ones...
>
> Yes, exact;y the first dialog was a working dialog I could use to pick colors so
> I could get the tab color changed and saved to a file.  I have completed that,
> so now I am working on the dialog.

Okay.

> > > > I'm with you when it comes with the drawbacks you described for the
> > > > current color dialog, but it may be hard for Daniel to change that ;-)
> > >
> > > I don't understand that either. If we have to use a standard dialog,
> > > there is no room for our input. If we can change it, why not design it
> > > well? What's more, I made 6 suggestions. Are they all impossible to
> > > implement?
> >
> > I don't know if they are impossible to implement. But I doubt if too
> > many changes improve the dialog, which is currently known to the user.
> > For example, the way OOo handles color palettes is not too bad, and does
> > somehow interfere with some of your proposals.
>
> I can make a good color dialog, or keep it simple.  I'd like to implement the
> more colors button that invokes that sv color picker showed in the original
> screen shots, so the user can pick a custom color.  The color will be added
> to the current palette, with a name of _Recent X_ where X is the
> number of the custom color. i.e. the first one would be equal to _Recent 1_

Your first sentence sounds a bit funny to me, because then a simple
dialog would never be good. From my experience, sometimes being simpler
is being better. Why do I think that?

>From my point of view, we are just talking about choosing tab colors.
Colors, which should be distinguishable well and which will never get
printed (which is sometimes an advantage). So I'm wondering whether we
really need more than 100 colors for the tabs, if we really need user
defined ones. I would assume that we need not more than about 10
different colors...

What will happen with those Recent entries? Will they get saved to be
used later, will they be available in other modules like Calc or
Impress.

We're still talking about colored tabs. At this point it makes sense to
me to rethink the whole color selection in OpenOffice.org - which would
also affect tab colors. Curently it's highly consistent, so I assume
there will be only few "places" affected in the code.

> > > > So please keep that in mind if we once re-design our color dialogs. Or,
> > > > maybe (if you had already thought about) just design "the ideal" color
> > > > dialog which fits into OOo in general. Maybe this will be something for
> > > > Renaissance :-)
> > >
> > > In my previous email I designed the perfect color menu :-) for
> > > purposes where color precision is not required.[3]  What do you think
> > > about it?
> > >
> > > [3] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Image:Tab_color_menu_3.png
> > >
> > > > Daniel, after I've already sent my mail yesterday, I noticed that I
> > > > missed an important point. You talked about a modal dialog and I
> > > > provided some comments - but I should understand the intended
> > > > interaction first. So the user opens the dialog, choses a color and
> > > > then... will he somehow confirm that selection? What if (s)he doesn't
> > > > want to change the color after all, how to cancel that operation? So
> > > > maybe the whole dialog has to designed non-modal, or it has to be a real
> > > > dialog with added OK/Cancel.
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Either click the "x" button in the window title bar, or press Escape.
> > > There is no need for OK and Cancel buttons - keep it small and
> > > unobstructive.
> >
> > ...but make it's behavior known to the user. At least for me, there are
> > some use cases where such interaction makes perfect sense, for a modal
> > dialog. But let's wait for Daniel's response.
>
> I want to make changing the tab color as quick as possible, so if the user
> does not click on a color or the more button, the dialog closes with no
> changes made.

Speaking with number of clicks, you may be right. But, it seems to be a
mixture of several kinds of interaction in OpenOffice.org and may cause
some frustration. Why?

Think of a person who already colored some tabs and added a worksheet.
The person opens the new color dialog and just wants to check some of
the colors (he don't remembers exactly). He clicks on one -
unfortunately wrong. The dialog is gone, so he reopens it... wrong
color. Reopens it...

With the current floating toolbars concept in the rest of OOo, the color
dialog will just stay open (e.g. Text Color in Writer). Select some text
and click on it - a non-modal dialog. Or, the usual concept is to select
a color in a dialog which has to be confirmed with OK. The user can
change it until he is satisified - OK and done.

Here, the tab color dialog looks like a floating toolbar, but doesn't
behave like it. There are just people out there who a) never learned
that mouse hovering is enough to show the color's name, and b) rely on
the already available knowledge (a floating toolbar behaves like a
floating toolbar).

>From my point of view, it would be great to save clicks by letting the
user select multiple worksheets and select the color for all of them at
the same time. Then, adding OK/Cancel would give the user the control he
requires (factor controllability).

Regards,
Christoph


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Re: Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Daniel Watson-3
In reply to this post by Sophie-2-2
Hi Sophie,

Somehow I must have messed this up.  This should be a continuation of
this thread:

http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/BrowseList?list=discuss&by=thread&from=2184541

I just subscribed today, and the thread was originally started by
Christoph Noack <[hidden email]>

Sorry about that.

So, I 'm not sure what the consensus is here:

Which one should I use?

No Color
No Fill
Automatic
Default

I would rather use No Color, since it makes the most sense to me.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 12:43 PM, sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Daniel,
> Daniel Watson wrote:
>> I can set it to "No Color" if that makes it easier for translation.
>
> I can't find your original message on the list, but yes "No Color" would
> be better as you're already know it's about a Tab.
> Or if you want to stay consistent with the "no filling" choices that are
> already existing in the UI for Font Color, or Highlighting or Background
> color, etc, you may choose "Automatic" which is not so far from
> Clément's proposal with "Default".
>
> Kind regards
> Sophie
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>



--
Regards,
Daniel Watson

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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Daniel Watson-3
In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Hi Christoph!

My responses are below...

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Christoph Noack
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Daniel!
>
> Just a few words on the color dialogs...
>
> Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 20:47 -0800 schrieb Daniel Watson:
>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Christoph Noack
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 17:53 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
>> > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Christoph Noack
>> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > ...
>> > > > Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 05:50 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
>> > > ...
>> > > >> Nice work. I agree that the user never needs to use a fine color map
>> > > >> (the currently implemented dialog shown in Section 1.2.3.1), because
>> > > >> she only needs some colors to differentiate the tabs, and because
>> > > >> there usually relatively few sheets.
>> > > >
>> > > > That may be true, but in my opinion, Daniel did the right thing to base
>> > > > his design on the dialogs which are already there - like the text color
>> > > > or text background windows. So our users can just use their current
>> > > > knowledge. And gets the color palette he or his company wants (in OOo
>> > > > you can easily adapt the color palette for all modules).
>> > >
>> > > I don't understand. Daniel initially implemented a big dialog [1], but
>> > > plans to replace it with a smaller dialog [2]. I agreeing with the
>> > > change and suggesting some further changes. Are you objecting to the
>> > > change?
>> > >
>> > > [1] http://picasaweb.google.com/phil.ganchev/UI#5298333194639902338
>> > > [2] http://picasaweb.google.com/phil.ganchev/UI#5298333200793456850
>> >
>> > The first dialog (in the specification document) containt 'sv' in it's
>> > name - I think he used the one from the StarView framework, which is the
>> > old basis for OpenOffice.org. Maybe it was just for testing purposes, so
>> > I absolutely recommend the change to the second one. Because it mimics
>> > the behavior of the today's ones...
>>
>> Yes, exact;y the first dialog was a working dialog I could use to pick colors so
>> I could get the tab color changed and saved to a file.  I have completed that,
>> so now I am working on the dialog.
>
> Okay.
>
>> > > > I'm with you when it comes with the drawbacks you described for the
>> > > > current color dialog, but it may be hard for Daniel to change that ;-)
>> > >
>> > > I don't understand that either. If we have to use a standard dialog,
>> > > there is no room for our input. If we can change it, why not design it
>> > > well? What's more, I made 6 suggestions. Are they all impossible to
>> > > implement?
>> >
>> > I don't know if they are impossible to implement. But I doubt if too
>> > many changes improve the dialog, which is currently known to the user.
>> > For example, the way OOo handles color palettes is not too bad, and does
>> > somehow interfere with some of your proposals.
>>
>> I can make a good color dialog, or keep it simple.  I'd like to implement the
>> more colors button that invokes that sv color picker showed in the original
>> screen shots, so the user can pick a custom color.  The color will be added
>> to the current palette, with a name of _Recent X_ where X is the
>> number of the custom color. i.e. the first one would be equal to _Recent 1_
>
> Your first sentence sounds a bit funny to me, because then a simple
> dialog would never be good. From my experience, sometimes being simpler
> is being better. Why do I think that?

Sorry about that. I didn't mean to make my statement sound mutually
exclusive.

>
> >From my point of view, we are just talking about choosing tab colors.
> Colors, which should be distinguishable well and which will never get
> printed (which is sometimes an advantage). So I'm wondering whether we
> really need more than 100 colors for the tabs, if we really need user
> defined ones. I would assume that we need not more than about 10
> different colors...

The problem comes in defining the colors. I would rather use the
palette associated with the document than have a hard coded selection
of colors that is not easily changed.

>
> What will happen with those Recent entries? Will they get saved to be
> used later, will they be available in other modules like Calc or
> Impress.

I am not sure, yet. My thought process was to add it to the document's
palette. When the sheet is opened again, since the colors are in that
palette, then all color pickers in calc will show the custom colors at the
tail end of the palette.

>
> We're still talking about colored tabs. At this point it makes sense to
> me to rethink the whole color selection in OpenOffice.org - which would
> also affect tab colors. Curently it's highly consistent, so I assume
> there will be only few "places" affected in the code.

I can not wait until this is done to work on this feature. It would be
wonderful if there was a standard dialog that could be invoked, but the
only canned dialog I saw was the Sv Color Picker we discussed earlier.

>
>> > > > So please keep that in mind if we once re-design our color dialogs. Or,
>> > > > maybe (if you had already thought about) just design "the ideal" color
>> > > > dialog which fits into OOo in general. Maybe this will be something for
>> > > > Renaissance :-)
>> > >
>> > > In my previous email I designed the perfect color menu :-) for
>> > > purposes where color precision is not required.[3]  What do you think
>> > > about it?
>> > >
>> > > [3] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Image:Tab_color_menu_3.png
>> > >
>> > > > Daniel, after I've already sent my mail yesterday, I noticed that I
>> > > > missed an important point. You talked about a modal dialog and I
>> > > > provided some comments - but I should understand the intended
>> > > > interaction first. So the user opens the dialog, choses a color and
>> > > > then... will he somehow confirm that selection? What if (s)he doesn't
>> > > > want to change the color after all, how to cancel that operation? So
>> > > > maybe the whole dialog has to designed non-modal, or it has to be a real
>> > > > dialog with added OK/Cancel.
>> > > ...
>> > >
>> > > Either click the "x" button in the window title bar, or press Escape.
>> > > There is no need for OK and Cancel buttons - keep it small and
>> > > unobstructive.
>> >
>> > ...but make it's behavior known to the user. At least for me, there are
>> > some use cases where such interaction makes perfect sense, for a modal
>> > dialog. But let's wait for Daniel's response.
>>
>> I want to make changing the tab color as quick as possible, so if the user
>> does not click on a color or the more button, the dialog closes with no
>> changes made.
>
> Speaking with number of clicks, you may be right. But, it seems to be a
> mixture of several kinds of interaction in OpenOffice.org and may cause
> some frustration. Why?
>
> Think of a person who already colored some tabs and added a worksheet.
> The person opens the new color dialog and just wants to check some of
> the colors (he don't remembers exactly). He clicks on one -
> unfortunately wrong. The dialog is gone, so he reopens it... wrong
> color. Reopens it...
>
> With the current floating toolbars concept in the rest of OOo, the color
> dialog will just stay open (e.g. Text Color in Writer). Select some text
> and click on it - a non-modal dialog. Or, the usual concept is to select
> a color in a dialog which has to be confirmed with OK. The user can
> change it until he is satisified - OK and done.

The latter option is more feasible to me. I tried creating a floating dialog
but I spent too much time on it and I was getting nowhere. The dialog
would close anytime I touched the Dialog Title to move it.  This behavior
was intermittent and I do not have time to study the underlying dialog
code to troubleshoot it.

>
> Here, the tab color dialog looks like a floating toolbar, but doesn't
> behave like it. There are just people out there who a) never learned
> that mouse hovering is enough to show the color's name, and b) rely on
> the already available knowledge (a floating toolbar behaves like a
> floating toolbar).

Actually what you are looking at, from my specs, _is_ the background
floating toolbar dialog. I am updating specs to show the finished dialog.
The finished Dialog has OK and Cancel buttons.

>
> >From my point of view, it would be great to save clicks by letting the
> user select multiple worksheets and select the color for all of them at
> the same time. Then, adding OK/Cancel would give the user the control he
> requires (factor controllability).

I have added the ability to color multiple tabs at once.

>
> Regards,
> Christoph
>
>

--
Thanks for your comments, they give me great direction,
Daniel

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Re: Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Sophie-2-2
In reply to this post by Daniel Watson-3
Hi Daniel,
Daniel Watson wrote:

> Hi Sophie,
>
> Somehow I must have messed this up.  This should be a continuation of
> this thread:
>
> http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/BrowseList?list=discuss&by=thread&from=2184541
>
> I just subscribed today, and the thread was originally started by
> Christoph Noack <[hidden email]>
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> So, I 'm not sure what the consensus is here:
>
> Which one should I use?
>
> No Color
> No Fill
> Automatic
> Default
>
> I would rather use No Color, since it makes the most sense to me.

Most of the color palettes in OOo use Automatic or No Fill when there is
no color selected. Automatic for me is when you use the default color
(gray or white depending the selection of the tab), but I'm not a ux
expert, so I let the other decide here :)

Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Clément Pillias

Le 6 févr. 09 à 10:59, sophie a écrit :

> Most of the color palettes in OOo use Automatic or No Fill when  
> there is no color selected. Automatic for me is when you use the  
> default color (gray or white depending the selection of the tab),  
> but I'm not a ux expert, so I let the other decide here :)

I have always thought that "Automatic" could be confusing… E.g. for  
tab colors, some users may think that "Automatic" assigns to each tab  
a color selected automatically from the palette, depending on some  
unknown criterion…

Since adding a tab color is the result of an explicit user choice, I  
think that "Default" is better in this situation.

"No Color" is a good choice too, less ambiguous than "default" but  
semantically incorrect (there is a color!). "No Coloring" would be a  
little less wrong ;) But in english we should say "colour" :(

I do not like "No Fill" because it means that the tab is transparent,  
which is not the case. And it is semantically less precise than "No  
Coloring", since "coloring" is "filling with color" ;)

So my "top five" is:
1. Default
2. No Coloring
3. No Color
4. No Fill
5. Automatic

Regards,

Clément.
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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Christoph Noack
In reply to this post by Daniel Watson-3
Hi Daniel,

I'm sorry that you get such a late reply. I must have missed your mail
since there are currently so many unread :-|

Am Donnerstag, den 05.02.2009, 14:37 -0800 schrieb Daniel Watson:
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Christoph Noack
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 20:47 -0800 schrieb Daniel Watson:
> >> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Christoph Noack
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 17:53 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
> >> > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Christoph Noack
> >> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > > ...

[...]
> > Your first sentence sounds a bit funny to me, because then a simple
> > dialog would never be good. From my experience, sometimes being simpler
> > is being better. Why do I think that?
>
> Sorry about that. I didn't mean to make my statement sound mutually
> exclusive.

Just a ;-)

> > >From my point of view, we are just talking about choosing tab colors.
> > Colors, which should be distinguishable well and which will never get
> > printed (which is sometimes an advantage). So I'm wondering whether we
> > really need more than 100 colors for the tabs, if we really need user
> > defined ones. I would assume that we need not more than about 10
> > different colors...
>
> The problem comes in defining the colors. I would rather use the
> palette associated with the document than have a hard coded selection
> of colors that is not easily changed.

Oh, I thought colors are always defined for whole OOo. Does that mean
that it is possible to add certain colors on a per-document basis? I've
never seen that, so I assumed there must be a global color palette.

> > What will happen with those Recent entries? Will they get saved to be
> > used later, will they be available in other modules like Calc or
> > Impress.
>
> I am not sure, yet. My thought process was to add it to the document's
> palette. When the sheet is opened again, since the colors are in that
> palette, then all color pickers in calc will show the custom colors at the
> tail end of the palette.

Mmh, at least then the term "recent" will not really fit :-)

But I still wonder whether it is required to have more than 100 colors
for the tabs. My current knowledge (or assumption?) is, that we still
have the standard color palette by OpenOffice.org. Or am I wrong?

[...]
> > Here, the tab color dialog looks like a floating toolbar, but doesn't
> > behave like it. [...]
> Actually what you are looking at, from my specs, _is_ the background
> floating toolbar dialog. I am updating specs to show the finished dialog.
> The finished Dialog has OK and Cancel buttons.

I am still convinced that this is a good solution, so I'm happy with
that. Thank you!

> I have added the ability to color multiple tabs at once.

That's truly great and (from my point of view) the most important
feature extension.

Thank you very much for being so open for a discussion on UX! I hope
this feedback will help to make your feature a success!

Bye,
Christoph


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Re: Quick review for Tab Colors in Calc (was: Re: [ux-discuss] ... [Fwd: [ux-request] Tab Colors in Calc])

Daniel Watson-3
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Christoph Noack
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Daniel,
>
> I'm sorry that you get such a late reply. I must have missed your mail
> since there are currently so many unread :-|

No worries. I realize that people are busy.

>
> Am Donnerstag, den 05.02.2009, 14:37 -0800 schrieb Daniel Watson:
>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Christoph Noack
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 20:47 -0800 schrieb Daniel Watson:
>> >> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Christoph Noack
>> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > Am Montag, den 02.02.2009, 17:53 -0500 schrieb Philip Ganchev:
>> >> > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Christoph Noack
>> >> > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > > ...
>
> [...]
>> > Your first sentence sounds a bit funny to me, because then a simple
>> > dialog would never be good. From my experience, sometimes being simpler
>> > is being better. Why do I think that?
>>
>> Sorry about that. I didn't mean to make my statement sound mutually
>> exclusive.
>
> Just a ;-)
>
>> > >From my point of view, we are just talking about choosing tab colors.
>> > Colors, which should be distinguishable well and which will never get
>> > printed (which is sometimes an advantage). So I'm wondering whether we
>> > really need more than 100 colors for the tabs, if we really need user
>> > defined ones. I would assume that we need not more than about 10
>> > different colors...
>>
>> The problem comes in defining the colors. I would rather use the
>> palette associated with the document than have a hard coded selection
>> of colors that is not easily changed.
>
> Oh, I thought colors are always defined for whole OOo. Does that mean
> that it is possible to add certain colors on a per-document basis? I've
> never seen that, so I assumed there must be a global color palette.

I have removed the whole more colors button and behavior from this
dialog.

>
>> > What will happen with those Recent entries? Will they get saved to be
>> > used later, will they be available in other modules like Calc or
>> > Impress.
>>
>> I am not sure, yet. My thought process was to add it to the document's
>> palette. When the sheet is opened again, since the colors are in that
>> palette, then all color pickers in calc will show the custom colors at the
>> tail end of the palette.
>
> Mmh, at least then the term "recent" will not really fit :-)
>
> But I still wonder whether it is required to have more than 100 colors
> for the tabs. My current knowledge (or assumption?) is, that we still
> have the standard color palette by OpenOffice.org. Or am I wrong?

The dialog uses the standard color palette used by all other color
selectors in calc.  My standard palette happens to have that many
colors in it.

>
> [...]
>> > Here, the tab color dialog looks like a floating toolbar, but doesn't
>> > behave like it. [...]
>> Actually what you are looking at, from my specs, _is_ the background
>> floating toolbar dialog. I am updating specs to show the finished dialog.
>> The finished Dialog has OK and Cancel buttons.
>
> I am still convinced that this is a good solution, so I'm happy with
> that. Thank you!
>
>> I have added the ability to color multiple tabs at once.
>
> That's truly great and (from my point of view) the most important
> feature extension.
>
> Thank you very much for being so open for a discussion on UX! I hope
> this feedback will help to make your feature a success!

My pleasure.  A new spec will be available soon.

>
> Bye,
> Christoph
>
>

--
Regards,
Daniel Watson

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